Betsy Kalin:

Hi, Terry. It's great to meet you.

Terry Gock:

Hello, Betsy. Very nice meeting you too. I love your background.

Betsy Kalin:

Oh, thank you. It's the Nonura Samurai house in Kanazawa, Japan.

Terry Gock:

Oh, beautiful. Yes.

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah. It's my photo.

Terry Gock:

Yes, but it will keep me Zen.

Betsy Kalin:

That's I just had a faculty meeting and that's what I used. Yeah.

Terry Gock:

Betsy Kalin:

All right, Terry. So, the first question is to give your date and place of birth and name.

Terry Gock:

Yes. My name is Terry Gock and I was born on August 10th 1951. So, I just turned 70 a few months ago. I was born and raised in Hong Kong.

Betsy Kalin:

Great, thank you. And can you start by telling me what was your relationship like with your parents and your grandparents and your brother when you were growing up?

Terry Gock:

That's a very good question. Actually, my parents were divorced when I was very young, like probably three years old or so; three, four years old. I am the oldest of two and I have a younger brother about a year younger. We were raised by our paternal grandmother.

Terry Gock:

My mother would visit whenever she was back in Hong Kong, she was going to other places. In the fifties, there were very few divorced Chinese couples, especially in Hong Kong. And of course, with women having very little sort of job opportunities, she was doing other things in Southeast Asia.

Terry Gock:

So, she would come back and visit. My father was in and out of the picture because he was sort of like the black sheep of the family. In fact, it's my grandmother who suggested that my mother should divorce him. My father's relationship with my grandmother, sort of,

Terry Gock:

became better as time went on. I actually, and my brother, grew up with my grandmother as our primary caregiver, as well as our authority figure. I really, like, appreciate it and now certainly was very grateful that we had this stable figure there who supported us throughout.

Terry Gock:

My grandparents met in Australia and my grandfather was in Australia around the beginning of the 1900s with his uncles. My grandmother was actually born in Australia, one of 11

Terry Gock:

in a little rural area outside of Sydney. Her parents were farmers and Chinese, so they're Chinese Australians. My grandfather was not really -- They didn't have anything, They had a fruit stall. My understanding was that they were importing

Terry Gock:

and exporting bananas from Fiji and they actually made it. Also we came from our family village in the province of Hsiangshan in Southern China, was the same province of Dr. Sun Yat-Sen, the father of modern China. And when Dr. Sun was raising money

Terry Gock:

for the revolution against the Qing dynasty, he was in Australia. My grandparents and my great-grand uncles were supportive of him. So, within new national government, they also became, like, what they call international delegates to the new government.

Terry Gock:

And so, they went back to China. The family grew from there and came to Hong Kong during the war, the Sino-Japanese war. So, I was born in Hong Kong

Betsy Kalin:

That's great. I didn't hear that before. So, that was an excellent story.

Betsy Kalin:

I just wanna share with you that my wife is from Singapore and her family actually is also in Perth and runs a Chinese restaurant .

Terry Gock:

Who knows, in the lives past, my family may have supplied them with bananas and fruits wow. That's fantastic. Fascinating. They were there

Terry Gock:

around the same time when people were coming to this country for economic reasons, really. Actually, the building where the family fruit grocery stall was,

Terry Gock:

is now a historical building. I went there and it was a 7-eleven now, go figure. But the building is a historical figure, would not be torn down.

Betsy Kalin:

Great. And then, can you also talk about, I think you said that you were from an upper middle class or middle-class family.

Terry Gock:

Yes. My family actually was considered one of the big four families in Shanghai.

Terry Gock:

We had one of the biggest department stores in Shanghai. It's still there. I mean, of course, not ours anymore, and as well as many other things. And so, with the war and then with a lot, moved to Hong Kong, as well as to places like Singapore.

Terry Gock:

My understanding was that it was many different branches of the family. Some still had the department store, which was the flagship company, but it broadened. My grandfather died pretty much right after the war, so my family was not in the main part of the dynasty. However, my grandmother,

Terry Gock:

again another strong woman, like my mother, was the one who kept our family fortune going, not like the big family fortune, but whatever we had she did investment. Actually, when I was growing up, she would go to the office every day in an import/export business

Terry Gock:

that she ran with one of her brother-in-laws after her sister died. And frankly, I don't know what she would do there. She would be there from 10 o'clock in the morning till like three o'clock in the afternoon. When I was a little bit older, she would even call me in the middle of the day after school and take me out to see movies. She loved Elvis.

Terry Gock:

We saw a lot of Elvis movies when I was growing up. She was sustaining herself and sustaining all of us. Even when I was growing up, when I was very young, Chinese New Year, we had red envelopes from relatives and friends,

Terry Gock:

and we would not be given a lot of that. She would take it and invest it for us. I got a little bit to buy firecrackers and those kind of things, but most of it was invested and that's also part, and of course, I don't think it was enough, but that with others was what actually funded my college education.

Betsy Kalin:

Oh, wow. That's amazing.

Terry Gock:

Yes.

Betsy Kalin:

When you were in school, why did you begin doing community service? And tell me more about where you started doing it?

Terry Gock:

Ah, yeah, I went to parochial school all throughout in Hong Kong, through high school. I think it started when I was in grade five or six and I was in Cub scout and then little bit older boy scout. And I really didn't think that

Terry Gock:

it fit me very well. I was more interested in, sometimes, the services that we provided rather than badges that we earned. And so, I left, I left the boy Scouts and around that same time, I think I was in grade nine, maybe grade eight. Yeah, probably what would be considered grade nine?

Terry Gock:

I was in British education, so we would go to what would be grade 13 here, I believe I was in grade nine. I was in a Christian Brothers school or in Hong Kong in other places we called the La Sallel Brothers. One of the brothers, Brother Alfonsus, gathered a bunch of us

Terry Gock:

and said would you like to start a social service group? There was a key club kind and other kind of service club, but he wanted us to start one of our own. That's how I started services. I was the, I guess, inaugural committee's vice president.

Terry Gock:

In later years, I asked Brother Alfonsus, how did you choose me and chose us? And he said, "Oh, I just took the list of students and took the top 20% and see what hit" . So, it wasn't that special , but it got me very interested. We were doing a lot of community services and what was good

Terry Gock:

was that I was from an upper middle-class kind of background, and it gave me experiences of people that were socioeconomically less privileged than I was, as well as, and by that time I was a converted Catholic.

Terry Gock:

I was also doing services as part of that. I was in a group in those days called the Legion of Mary. We would do a lot of community services, as well as teaching catechism to younger kids, I guess and so services

Terry Gock:

became really a very large part of my identity.

Betsy Kalin:

Great. Yes. I wanted to definitely talk about that, because we're gonna discuss that throughout this interview. Then something else that I wanted to touch on is that expectation for you to get married and pass on the family name?

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah. That's obviously in our culture that would have been a major expectation. The good thing, there was not a lot of pressure when I was growing up because the pressure was, 'you really shouldn't be getting married or even dating, just study hard'. And I certainly, in a way, complied. The expectations though was

Terry Gock:

when I was here in this country. When I was a young adult and when I came to this country, I reunited, in terms of proximity, with my mother who by that time was in San Francisco and was married to a Chinese American who was in the military.

Terry Gock:

Throughout those early college years there were these expectations trying to get -- Who are you dating? When are you gonna get married? But don't get married too early, finish school first. And of course,

Terry Gock:

in those days, I had inklings of being gay, but I was certainly not even really clear or I wasn't out even to myself in the early college years. Although, if I look back, there were attractions with my schoolmates all the way through junior high or maybe even primary school.

Terry Gock:

But my mother and I had a number of difference in opinion, because, of course, I was the oldest and she wanted grandchildren. And what I was telling her was that, well, I don't have to get married, but I could still have grandchildren and sort of like laying the groundwork, so to speak. As time went on,

Terry Gock:

when I was in graduate school, so the expectation was there. The one thing was that when I was outed, by my brother, actually, to her, I was in graduate school in St. Louis. My plan was to let her know when I would be in person but my brother

Terry Gock:

superseded me and so when I was outed, she had already met my boyfriend in those days. I was really appreciative and thankful that my stepfather actually, who was in the military, was the one that actually helped her.

Terry Gock:

By the time she called me to tell me, a month after she knew, that she knew, and it was hard. My stepfather was the one who stayed with her and sort of got her to understand that the Terry that she knew hadn't changed.

Terry Gock:

She had met, at that time, my boyfriend, Ray, and she said, "Well, it's like having another son and it perhaps is okay because even if you are married and I have a daughter-in-law, she might not be nice to me," and Ray was very nice to both of them.

Terry Gock:

I mean, she reframed it and that's how the expectations still, about, well, I'm not gonna have a grandson or grand granddaughter, more like grandson, and I kept saying, well, I don't have to get married to have a child, if I want.

Terry Gock:

And so, we went through this throughout the years.

Betsy Kalin:

Something else that you had mentioned that I'd like you to talk about is -- The question is, what did you say to your mom when she asked you if she was responsible for you being gay?

Terry Gock:

Yeah. The backstory was that the reason my brother outed me was that

Terry Gock:

he was upset with her, and he claimed to her that I was gay because she divorced our father and that she was not around when I was growing up. She carried that for a long time and at different points in time, we talked about it, but maybe a year or two before she died, I was

Terry Gock:

already in my forties, I believe, and she had already seen my accomplishments. I mean, she came to my center and the good thing was that a lot of people could speak Chinese, and the way that I was so revered, I was the director of the center. She was very impressed, among other things.

Terry Gock:

Even a year or two before she died, she asked me "Was I responsible for your being gay?" And at that time, I was able to say to her, I said, "If you want to be responsible for my being gay, you also have to be responsible for my accomplishments, and for who I have become." I hope that it gave her more peace as time went on.

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah, I think that's just a beautiful thing to say, I love that. Let's go back a little bit. When you were in college, is that when you first realized that you were gay or started realizing that being gay wasn't an okay thing to be?

Terry Gock:

Yeah. Well, there was a little bit more of not -- 'being gay is not an okay thing' -- when I was in Hong Kong.

Terry Gock:

It was so like by omission -- that nobody talked about it and there was nothing negative ever said about it, so I never had that preconceived kind of prejudice that I experienced from others about being gay. Although, I couldn't remember anyone talking, saying anything. When I came to this country to start college,

Terry Gock:

it was a little bit of an eye opening. And by the way, at church, it was never mentioned either. When I came over here, and started college, it's clearer that it's not a good thing. People say negative things about

Terry Gock:

people being effeminate and being a faggot. At school, I mean, I was living in the dorm in those days. I got some ideas, and yet, it's not really clear to me, even about myself. The one thing that happened was that I had a class in human sexuality

Terry Gock:

and the topic of homosexuality was discussed. It was discussed in a very neutral way by our professor, and that got me into exploring more. This was in the psychology department. It got me looking at it more. It's from that, from that understanding and trying to figure out as well as looking at,

Terry Gock:

perhaps me is part of that. Throughout the last two years of college, I was starting to come out to myself and did a little sexual experimentation with others. But it was not until I finished college --

Terry Gock:

I was going to go to graduate school, and that summer I was in San Francisco -- that I went to the first gay bar. and it was an Asian gay bar, it's called Rendezvous. And, suddenly, I also realized that there were other Asian gay people, so that's the beginning.

Terry Gock:

The good thing to me, in my experience, was that I left and went to graduate school after the summer in St. Louis. I was in the middle of country, I was by myself, and there was a lesbian couple who were nurses at our student health center, who took me

Terry Gock:

under their wings and helped me really come to terms with myself a lot more and being out a lot more. There was a gay and lesbian student union that had events and they would point me in different directions. So, I came of age in St. Louis, in that sense, coming to terms with myself.

Terry Gock:

By that time, I mean, I study enough of the psychological literature and so on to know that there are more than one side of that story.

Betsy Kalin:

I think you also mentioned that there were dances that you went to, can you tell me the years that this was going on?

Terry Gock:

Well, 1974/75. I was in St. Louis in 1974.

Terry Gock:

During the first year, I met this couple and I also met someone working in the computer lab and a staff person, and he also pointed me to different ... What is going on at school, where are the gay bars and those kind of things.

Betsy Kalin:

That's great. Let's see -- Then what was it like when you went to gay bars with like Asian cliques? Can you talk about the different groups of people?

Terry Gock:

Yeah. Well, that was a very interesting experience during that first summer when I was there

[San Francisco]. One thing I noticed was that when we were in that bar,

Terry Gock:

there were little groups, the Chinese Asian men were so like in one group and Japanese American in another one, Filipino in another one. Then the white gay men were circling around,

Terry Gock:

they were the ones who were looking for dates, for sexual partners, and the Asian cliques, people within it seem to be competing for the attention of these white gay men. Of course, I was doing the same, but

Terry Gock:

that was very prominent. In fact, I met someone at the bar and we dated several times. We would go to the bar on weekends, and there was an Asian man who was interested in me

Terry Gock:

and I was interested in him. My white date got really upset and he left. When I talked to him later, he said that that's not okay, Asians don't like Asians. I got into a big argument with him,

Terry Gock:

and he was someone in substance abuse/mental health field, and he diagnosed me a passive aggressive personality. Obviously, we didn't continue to date. But that's the milieu and the zeitgeist of that time.

Betsy Kalin:

When he said that Asians just aren't attracted to each other, was that like a commonly held belief? Not just by white men, but also by Asian men?

Terry Gock:

I don't know. That's obviously not my experience. I came from a culture where 99% -- I mean, a society where 90 something percent of the population were Asians. Yes, I was attracted to the Europeans in my class,

Terry Gock:

but there were a lot of very good looking attractive Chinese boys that I was interested in, so that did not compute. But it seemed like that was like the idea for many people at that time, or was it because of him? I really don't know because I wasn't in the area that much,

Betsy Kalin:

I mean, to me, it sounds a little bit like the majority kind of putting the rules on what they see as the minority population and kind of just enforcing their racist beliefs.

Terry Gock:

Now I would interpret it that way. However, I think in those days the institution and the systems

Terry Gock:

and the cultural belief was that being white was the only one that was desirable.

Betsy Kalin:

Wow. Can you talk about some of the issues, this may be later, that you encountered in the gay Asian community, especially within the lack of friendships among gay Asians.

Terry Gock:

Yeah. That's why when I finished college, I mean, graduate school and I came to Los Angeles in 1980. I met one person who was a first-year graduate student in psychology in those days,

Terry Gock:

who told me that there was this gay Asian group that was going to be formed, and would I be interested in coming to the meeting? That's when I saw and we talked, during those early times and those formative meetings, about the lack of

Terry Gock:

relationships and friendships that we felt at the bars. And we wanted to have a place where gay Asians can connect and be friends, as well as with non-Asians. And their experiences too

Terry Gock:

was very much those Asian cliques with the white gay man hovering around in the bars. One of the things that we were doing in those days was that sense of gay Asian identity, as well as pride in ourselves and with each other.

Terry Gock:

That's very much the beginning of my being in Los Angeles.

Betsy Kalin:

And then, can you go back? Can you mention the name? Can you talk about the Asian Pacific lesbian and gay organization?

Terry Gock:

Yes. Paul Chan was my initial introduction. Paul was the psychology graduate student, although he never finished and he moved on to do other things, but he sort of knew that I graduated and I was there. The early times, the meetings were held at

Terry Gock:

the loft house of Morris Kight, who was an activist in the Los Angeles area. It turned out that his partner, all these years, was Japanese American. He hosted us to start the formation meetings.

Terry Gock:

Then at Paul's place was when we would hold some of these early social gatherings. Tak Yamamoto was the first president, June Lagmay, who was also interviewed a few years ago by OUTWORDS, I think was a co-founder.

Terry Gock:

We started exploring, doing different activities and the group grew to over 200 members at many of our monthly meetings and most maybe half Asian, half non-Asian in those days. But the whole thing in the early years was very much about having a place

Terry Gock:

where gay Asians could be comfortable about themselves and to be able to be comfortable enough to connect with each other. It's really hard to feel good about yourself if you look at the mirror and someone that reflects back to you is not okay, by some standards,

Terry Gock:

by other people's beliefs and expectations. That's what we were working on. We were never a political group. We didn't do a lot of advocacy and those kind of things, but it was about our own identity, our own identity and pride.

Betsy Kalin:

I'm sorry, Terry, but we're not gonna most likely have my voice in your interview. So, could you say the name of the organization?

Terry Gock:

Oh, the name of the organization was "Asian/Pacific Lesbians and Gays, Incorporated." I was involved in drafting the bylaws to make it incorporated. Actually, the one little tidbit, fun fact, was that when we went to this this attorney who is from PFLAG,

Terry Gock:

and he has a gay son, he said, "If you guys are able to find my son a boyfriend, I won't charge you." Of course, that wasn't , but I thought it was funny.

Betsy Kalin:

It's too bad

[inaudible].

Betsy Kalin:

Did you work with the lesbian and gay center in LA soon after this?

Terry Gock:

Yeah. Well, the first year I was here, I was a postdoc fellow at USC med school, in a forensic psychology program. I wasn't doing much, I was very busy. When I first started working,

Terry Gock:

with my first job, I was asked by my supervisor in those days, to start developing an Asian program because she was a visionary, Dr. Susan Mandel. I want to lift her up.

Terry Gock:

She came to the clinic a year before me and became the CEO. It was a small clinic, but she saw that in the San Gabriel Valley area of Los Angeles, there was a growing Asian population, there was no services. When I applied for a job, she hired me.

Terry Gock:

Gave me a little time to do organizing, and I was meeting people in the community. One of the people that I met was Dr. Ford Kuramoto, who was the director of the Hollywood Mental Health Center. He is a straight man, a wonderful ally, all these years, he's still alive. He told me that he was on the advisory

Terry Gock:

group of the Gay and Lesbian Center's counseling department. He said, "You should come." That's how I got involved with the center. A few years later, one of my professional connection and friend, Eric Rofes, became the director of the Center.

Terry Gock:

In addition to helping them with the counseling center, doing some supervision, as well as on the advisory committee, I became a board member of the Center for a year or two years. That's how I was involved with the Center and I still have a very fond part of my being in my growing up

Terry Gock:

and my heart with the center. And I did the AIDS Ride. I was in the second AIDS Ride, second or third. So, my early community involvement, beside starting an Asian/Pacific lesbians and gay, was working with the Center.

Betsy Kalin:

That was in the center's very early years. Wasn't it?

Terry Gock:

Yeah. Well, it wasn't that early because my understanding was that it was in the seventies, maybe the mid-seventies, that they started; early seventies, mid-seventies. By the time I was on the board, it was over 10 years old. However, it is still pretty early. It was 1984/85, around there.

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah. I thought it was before they were completely well funded and established.

Terry Gock:

Oh, totally, totally. It was a little place, I think on Santa Monica Boulevard or something.

Betsy Kalin:

Great. You actually led me into the next question, why is it important for you to do community advocacy efforts to support HIV/AIDS services, especially for the API community in the eighties and the nineties?

Terry Gock:

That's a very good question there because in the eighties

Terry Gock:

and the early nineties, in my clinical work and in my social circles, many people died of HIV and AIDS, however, it was not necessarily the case in the Asian community.

Terry Gock:

However, one of our members of the Asian/Pacific Lesbians and Gay, we call 'em APLG, died of AIDS. Felt pretty ashamed, didn't tell a lot of people. I thought it would be important for us

Terry Gock:

to start looking and working on the issues and not so much just treatment, but for prevention. I thought that we had a better chance of prevention because the incidence was low, and it was very hard to do prevention. It is like when treatment was taking up so much money,

Terry Gock:

and understandably so, no one was interested in prevention as much. It's so like triage, although treatment was not really that well-funded in those days. We had a president in those days that couldn't even say the word, in Ronald Reagan. I thought we have to start doing something in the Asian community.

Terry Gock:

At the same time the Asian/Pacific Lesbians and Gay group was starting, we were mobilized to do a lot of education within the gay Asian community. However, there was no funding for us to do anything except the money that we raised, no public money.

Terry Gock:

At that time, it was 1987 or so, I would imagine '87, '88. I thought that we should bring it into the mainstream Asian community, for the advocacy part. One of the things that we had in the Los Angeles area is a very good

Terry Gock:

and collaborative group now called Asian Pacific Policy and Planning Council, where all the service agencies would meet and advocate for services, from social services to mental health, to medical and so on. By that time, I have established myself with my credential as chairing the mental health committee already two times,

Terry Gock:

so I was a known person to the group. I work with this APLG's group that was trying to do prevention and education to try to get the planning council to be involved in advocacy. Of course, they were not that interested.

Terry Gock:

They didn't know what AIDS was that much, that is basically, oh, it's a gay disease, we don't have gays around. However, the good thing was that besides me, there was a community elder, Royal Morales. Uncle Royal was willing to partner with me, a wonderful ally. We got it through to start as a task force.

Terry Gock:

They wouldn't even establish a committee, but we said, okay, we'll start working and get them involved and so on. I also did not want to be on the board of the APLG's group which then became the Asian Pacific AIDS Intervention team

Terry Gock:

in Los Angeles, which is now expanding to other health services. But I purposely was not going to be on the board and my agency was not involved in providing HIV related services. I wasn't in direct competition with them so that I could become an advocate

Terry Gock:

with them at the department of health and department of mental health. I was involved with many of the HIV task forces and advisories and emphasizing on, underneath, for prevention. And actually, the first grant that the AIDS Intervention Team got from the county government, the department of health,

Terry Gock:

they had no idea who this agency was. Although I was involved with the director and their task force, he called me and asked me, "Do you know this agency? They applied for funding, and they had no track record." I was able to explain to him this group, and he said, "I'll take your words. I'll give them a little money." That was their first public grant,

Terry Gock:

but it takes people from the outside as well as inside to make things work in that kind of way. I was happy to play that role."

Betsy Kalin:

I love how smart you were about it too, because if you're not on the board, then it can't be seen as an insider thing .

Terry Gock:

Yes, exactly, exactly. The whole thing was --

Terry Gock:

I know that I'm strategic, and I think a lot came from the days when I started working in doing social service in my teenage year; how to organize, how to make things work. However, it's not like

Terry Gock:

I was thinking yeah, the only thing that I think I purposely did, very intentional, was that by 1990 or so, I decided that what I wanted to do was to do more of the LGBT and HIV kind of work nationally within my profession of psychology. That's how I became involved much more

Terry Gock:

in those areas than locally. But other than that, it was so like if someone asked me did you intend to do this, plan to do this? I would say, no, it just happened, so to speak.

Betsy Kalin:

Great. So, I was gonna lead into talking about the Association of Gay Psychologists, , Can you tell me

Betsy Kalin:

what your first American Psychological Association annual convention was like and what year it was?

Terry Gock:

Yeah, I was an intern, a predoctoral intern, in 1976. So, my first convention was in San Francisco in 1977.

Terry Gock:

In those days, I did not know many of the professional activities and what was going on, except I knew that there's a group called the Association of Gay Psychologists, later called Association of Lesbian Gay Psychologists, and that really was not part of the mainstream, which was the American Psychological Association,

Terry Gock:

but they put a lot of pressure that enough of the disruption in the early-, mid-seventies that the APA -- when I say APA, it's the American Psychological Association -- came out with their resolution that homosexuality per se is not a mental illness, but frankly, our research since the mid 1950s,

Terry Gock:

starting with Dr. Evelyn Hooker in UCLA was saying that. However, be that as it may, there's this group of Association of Gay Psychologists, who's not part of the mainstream APA and the convention. However, they always had a hospitality suite, apparently,

Terry Gock:

and host like alternative meetings and seminars and social hours and parties. I learned about that when I was at the convention, and I went to San Francisco, their hotel, one evening at the party. Here I was,

Terry Gock:

a baby gay psychologist who didn't know anything, I walked into this room and it was a suite with -- I think it's about a hundred mostly gay men, psychologists, and some were practically hanging out of the window because it was so packed. It gave me

Terry Gock:

that aha moment that I could be gay and a psychologist. Because before that, I did not know of others except in books, people who wrote different books, and it really opened my eyes.

Terry Gock:

I was not involved in those days with them until I came back to Los Angeles after graduate school and got my doctorate in 1980. I came here and started being more involved with APA. In 1984, I believe,

Terry Gock:

this group ... There are enough people that was involved in APA that the division -- I forgot even what the name was -- Division 44 was petitioned and formed. I think that

Terry Gock:

now it is called the Society for the Psychological Study of Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity and I'm still involved with them. That experience was certainly very pivotal to my own professional formation as a gay psychologist. Really, without seeing others,

Terry Gock:

it's really hard to know about what is possible. And these are the pioneers.

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah. I love that story. Thank you. Thank you for sharing it.

Terry Gock:

Oh, you're welcome.

Betsy Kalin:

We are just about an hour, do you wanna take some water?

Terry Gock:

Yes, I could just take one sip of water.

Betsy Kalin:

Okay. Yeah. Take as many as you want.

Terry Gock:

No, no, no, that wouldn't be a good idea.

Terry Gock:

Got it. Thank you.

Betsy Kalin:

Okay, sure. Can you also talk about when you were at the APA convention and then Gene Robinson was getting affirmed?

Terry Gock:

Yes. We were at the APA convention and, of course,

Terry Gock:

heard the news that there would there could be a gay bishop and by that time, I would identify myself as an Episcopalian Christian, so it's my church, my national church. We were at the convention, but there was a lot of hoopla because there was accusation

Terry Gock:

that came up by someone that he had sexually molested them. I mean, it was high drama and it was unclear they would hold the affirmation. Because first, the local diocese elects

Terry Gock:

a Bishop, and then at the convention, at the national convention, it would be affirmed. They have to hold the affirmation, so we did not know, and they would do the investigation and so on. It was big news. We were involved in all these meetings at APA,

Terry Gock:

but we were -- It is sort of like people, not me, who would be at meetings and checking the scores of whatever games that we were looking at what's going on here. It was quite a bit of elation when it was all cleared and he was affirmed.

Terry Gock:

Also, Gene Robinson, our church was very supportive of him, although we are not from the same diocese. He explained to us that during his consecration, he had to wear a bullet-proof vest

Terry Gock:

under his vestments because of the death threats. Interestingly, it was a while back, but it wasn't that long ago. It's very interesting that the psychological community was actually checking out and rooting for a religious leader.

Betsy Kalin:

Something that you had said just before this was you were talking about how the APA had kind of made the designation that homosexuality was not a mental illness and it was before the other APA.

Terry Gock:

No, it was after.

Betsy Kalin:

Was it after? Okay, can you clarify that?

Terry Gock:

Yes. The other APA, the American Psychiatric Association, I think

Terry Gock:

did this, two or three years before, but it was done in a -- I cannot remember for sure, but I think what they did was that, it was not a policy resolution that they did. It was more like

Terry Gock:

they were addressing it in a different way. We at the American Psychological Association is through the Council Representatives, which is the policy making body that voted this resolution. The policy resolutions of American Psychological Association enable the staff to do advocacy as well as speak publicly on different issues,

Terry Gock:

so it was that the whole association would be behind it. Of course, as you know, there were enough blowbacks from people that don't agree with it within the psychological community, although it became mainstream in a way. I think that the implication was bigger in my view.

Betsy Kalin:

Can you talk about what that experience was going through that, because I know it's so hard to be thought every time you would seek treatment, you would be told that you had a mental illness.

Terry Gock:

Oh, yeah. Or in different ways, what it said -- I mean, it was very simple saying that homosexuality per se is not a mental illness. However, the implication is big because before that

Terry Gock:

it's about something is a mental illness, is a psychological, emotional disturbance, a disease. Then unfortunately, the implications with all these theories was: it must be because of your parents. It must be because of

Terry Gock:

something traumatic that had happened to you in a negative way. It went on and on. Every step of the way, everything that is negative was then associated with homosexuality. As scientists, we know that correlation does not mean causation. However, we have gone with that for years;

Terry Gock:

somehow, this causes you to be gay and then being gay causes you to kill yourself, and it's circular. This sort of started to put a break on that, letting us then be able to develop a lot of these other resolutions that I've been involved with.

Terry Gock:

By the way, this one came before me. We have many brave and courageous pioneers that did this. That helped to make this through. The Association of Lesbian and Gay Psychologists being the outside group was a lot of the disruptive forces that made this happen.

Terry Gock:

I think that for us, as a profession, we have gone from defending that it is not a mental illness, is not something bad and it doesn't need to be changed, the ways that we approached intervention never worked, hadn't worked, these conversion reparative therapy, now we call it sexual orientation change efforts

Terry Gock:

or gender identity change efforts. We don't even call it therapy because it's not. From that kind of defense, we were able to move into the positive part, parenting, legal civil marriage.

Terry Gock:

What is LGBT as well as gender diversity affirmative therapy approaches look like, and we keep going. From that kind of defense, we are now looking at what would be good, how would it be good

Terry Gock:

and what contributions LGBTQ+ people make to inform us about our science? Because in many ways, from our different experiences, we come with paradigms and perspectives that are not mainstream.

Terry Gock:

And it's from that advocacy part the policy part changed a lot of this, and that's why I've been involved in that all these years for that purpose.

Betsy Kalin:

I was gonna just say, this is your work on, which is it the committee, or can you talk about the committee for gay, lesbian, gay, bisexual concerns or is it something else?

Terry Gock:

Oh, no, no. Yes, that's a committee of the American Psychological Association. However, I've been more involved in addition to that, and as well as many other, I have been on quite a number of the board and committees of the American Psychological Association, but more importantly, and on the Council of Representatives that finally approve all these policies

Terry Gock:

and it's a 160+ people body, and believe me, there are so many LGBTQ people in there, not just with the Division 44 that I represent, the gay and lesbian and gender identity division, in many of the other division -- I mean, things have changed. In the beginning, we have to do all these

Terry Gock:

campaigning, getting people to be willing to support us to the most recent two resolutions that we have passed last year, in February, on resolution that even beefed up more of denouncing the sexual orientation and identity

Terry Gock:

diversity change efforts saying that not only are they not good, but they're harmful. By the time that we went to Council for the final vote, it's sort of like people say, duh, why are we voting on this? I mean, why do we have to spend more time? It should be on the consent agenda, basically. Well, of course there are one or two people that will oppose

Terry Gock:

and for their reasons, but it has changed, the reception to many of these things have changed. That's not because of just policy, because of the science that our division and everybody has been able to produce that form those arguments. In the American Psychological Association, as well as in our advocacy work,

Terry Gock:

we are informed by the knowledge and the science that we have in addition to the personal experiences that we also have, so still a lot of work to be done, but I'm happy to have been that part of it.

Betsy Kalin:

Were there any of their resolutions that you wanna mention?

Terry Gock:

Yeah, of course, the gay marriage supportive of gay marriage; on parenting, gay and lesbian parenting; and this is not a resolution, but I was involved in two iterations of the professional practice guidelines on psychotherapy with lesbian,

Terry Gock:

gay, bisexual clients. We have another set that I was not involved on gender expression and diversity. All have to be approved by the Council. The guidelines are the aspirational, what's the best practice that we know

Terry Gock:

how to do it. Just one bit about the gay marriage resolution. When the first time that we did the gay marriage resolution, I was part of it, doing the politics of it. A number of people would not support it about gay marriage,

Terry Gock:

and here's where the allies come in. One influential person, Dr. Ron Levant, who later on was the president of APA, was helpful. He said to me, "I would not be willing to support this at this time." He said, "Council is not ready for supporting gay marriage, same sex marriage

Terry Gock:

yet, I would be willing to support it, and I think others would likely be if we change it to supporting the equal benefits of marriage to gay and lesbian people." And that helped us pass it, and he's a great ally, and there were enough allies of those kinds.

Terry Gock:

We didn't do it alone. There has to be always collaboration. Then by the time, maybe 10 years later, when the same sex marriage resolution came about, I mean, it was a no brainer. So, sometimes, it's incremental; sometimes,

Terry Gock:

it's disruption; sometimes, it's collaborating from inside and outside. I'm very, very grateful to have been able to be part of it with so many people for these things.

Betsy Kalin:

Can you explain, so let's say the APA passes these resolutions, what does that mean for organizations or psychologists or for even regular people?

Terry Gock:

It changed the culture. For example, the resolution on same sex marriage, because these are enabling policies for the association to do advocacy, it allows us to do the Amicus brief to the courts,

Terry Gock:

to the Supreme court, as well as in California, to our California Supreme court that overturned Prop 8. For both, a lot of the Justices' opinions cited APA's Amicus brief, and the research and so on and to articulate and argue against this is really like --

Terry Gock:

It doesn't mess up children. It does do this, that, and another thing, in fact, the benefits of marriage is good, so to speak, for those who want it. Those policies have those kind of teeth, and the ones on change efforts also allow us now to also go into

Terry Gock:

if there's anything that comes up about change efforts, especially with some of the religious organizations still wanting to do this, and we have more data about the harm it would do. So, it's helpful. In training,

Terry Gock:

as well as in continuing education, it started the professionals in the field to start learning about what these issues are and where we stand, and it changed the culture in that way. I hope that a lot of times also, for the public,

Terry Gock:

we have best practices on how to work with LGBTQ+ people now, and I hope that the services would be better services, would be more compassionate services and in many ways more effective services.

Betsy Kalin:

Fantastic! I just wanted to clarify that because I wasn't sure people watching would know.

Terry Gock:

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Betsy Kalin:

Can you tell me, did you experience any discrimination in your career for being gay or being gay Asian?

Terry Gock:

Yes. As a student, I was in my second year, I was proposing a research project for my master ... We don't have a master program, you go directly for Doctorate,

Terry Gock:

however, they want you to start doing a research project and I was really taken by Dr. Hooker's research and I was going to do something to further that part as well as some of Dr. John Gonsiorek's research on the MMPI in those days,

Terry Gock:

and LGBT issues. I already known that I was in a very conservative area in St. Louis, with a program that is very traditional. So, I already tried to frame it as I'm gonna study the psychopathology of homosexuality. My professor, in our seminar, when I said that, it was summertime and he was leaning back against his chair,

Terry Gock:

he literally fell from his chair. After he composed himself, he gave me a lecture of why I shouldn't because it would destroy our department. So, that kind of homophobia veiled in academic terms. I never did that study, but it introduced me

Terry Gock:

clearly to what we had to work on, it was in 1976. When I was doing all these organizing to develop Asian mental health services, I was with Dr. Mandel. And then I left and went to another place to do that,

Terry Gock:

to develop services. I was organizing communities and doing things to try to develop the groundwork, the foundation for services, and I was bypassed, when we started the clinic, to be the director.

Terry Gock:

There was no other person that was involved in doing this, and by all accounts, by other people who said to me, even when I retired from my current position, said that in those days you were the upcoming one, and

Terry Gock:

I was bypassed, so I moved on to something else. Later on, I was told by my supervisor that I was bypassed because someone higher ups was uncomfortable with my being gay. By that time, I was more angry. In the beginning, when I was bypassed, I was hurt and I did not know why.

Terry Gock:

And of course, they have other reasons to say that they were not ready, blah, blah to appoint someone or whatever. I went back to work with -- A chance came up a few years later, I went back and continued to work with the Asian Pacific Family Center,

Terry Gock:

we developed that. Last 30 years of my career, I mean, it's been wonderful for me. I did not have to hide myself. The other thing was that the agency started in 1985

Terry Gock:

with an annual budget of $200,000. When I left from the director position, retired, it was more than 10 million a year. And it is not the amount of money, but the amount of services that we are able to provide to the communities. In a strange way, their not appointing me to be the program director

Terry Gock:

led me to continue to do something in a way that I was blessed to have been able to do.

Betsy Kalin:

Can you talk a little bit more about being the director of the Acian Pacific Family Center and what did you do there?

Terry Gock:

I said I do everything including windows.

Terry Gock:

I came back as the Associate Director. They created a position for me as the Associate Director. I mean, there were only 10 staff at that time, however, I was able to, in those days -- As well as started looking at how to expand the services from

Terry Gock:

one adult outpatient program to an array of programs, as well as I was very fortunate that I was able to do the integration of science and practice in the sense that I had applied for 11 federal competitive grants to do preventive intervention,

Terry Gock:

develop those for the Asian communities. And I got all 11 of them as the Principal Investigator and developed some of the Asian ethnic-specific bicultural parenting programs that are now evidence based and so on, as well as

Terry Gock:

expanding all these services to diverse communities. Before I left a few years ago, we started providing services to the Latinx immigrant communities, because in some of our areas we had in the schools, there were 45% Asian immigrants, 45% Latinx immigrants. When we go into those schools, it's just not right

Terry Gock:

to not be able to serve them, the Latinx immigrants, so we developed that. I wanted a model where our staff modeled being with each other, not as separate teams, but working together. And I was saying that I hope that one day we could celebrate

Terry Gock:

Cinco de Mayo with Chinese food and Chinese New Year with Korean food and Latinx food, and that's what they're doing. And so, to help the youth beginning to see that they don't have to be siloed in order to be okay, because we can model that.

Betsy Kalin:

Thats great.

Betsy Kalin:

When did you first start thinking in terms of intersectionality for your identity and talk to me about integrating being Asian and being gay.

Terry Gock:

I think it's with APLG or maybe even a little bit before that. In the last year or so of my graduate school. I started thinking a little bit more about that,

Terry Gock:

based on my experiences that I told you about this date or mine who says Asian don't like Asians, like it doesn't fit. I was starting to think and when I came to Los Angeles in 1980 and was being involved and being involved at the Asian Pacific Lesbians and Gay I started

Terry Gock:

that's what we would do. That's what we started talking about. And there is a very good friend and colleague of mine to this day, Dr. Bart Aoki, in San Francisco. He and I decided to do a group, a retreat, a weekend retreat in those days. There was a weekend retreat for gay men. It's called the Loving Someone Gay

Terry Gock:

with Don Clark, actually a psychologist. He wrote the book, Loving Someone Gay and we, so we want to do a version of that, however, focusing on identity and integration. It got me into we have to explore out with ourselves we're both gay Asian men. And professionals, we talk among ourselves how to do this.

Terry Gock:

We held, I think, one retreat with 12 members of APLG on these issues; how we saw the issues develop and how we address them, it certainly is with us too although we were facilitating

Terry Gock:

those programs . It became much more of an important part for me to look at how to integrate it and where are some of my own blind spots about being Asian and gay and what are some of the Kool-Aids that I had also taken. That started that process.

Terry Gock:

In a way, I think, I don't know, there is something about doing integration being gay and Asian. I know that it helps me to be a fuller, more alive person. If I look back on my career as a professional, as a psychologist, that has also been what I have been doing,

Terry Gock:

or sort of drawn to; research and clinical practice, combining that, doing mental mental health and public administration in my psychology work. My postdoctoral work was in forensic psychology, so psychology and the law. I mean, it's not like it,

Terry Gock:

I don't know whether those help me with integrating my identity or my work on integrating my identity was helpful to my seeing things in that kind of way, but either way, it's been a wonderful life .

Betsy Kalin:

Well, it sounds like I mean, to me, it sounded like when you started doing that work on your own identity then you had the framework and the process for doing it in your professional life as well.

Terry Gock:

Yeah. It's been great. In terms of, not for myself, but in my helping others that also not being so siloed into just one aspect and I certainly continue to learn and explore, and the process continues.

Betsy Kalin:

Can you talk about your other work? I know you've done work on sexuality and gender, but also with substance abuse, mental health and working with high-risk youth.

Terry Gock:

Yeah. Although I was trained as a clinical psychologist, I'm more drawn to community mental health and community psychology.

Terry Gock:

Many of the things that I try to do, I listen to what the community wants or needs; in my Asian immigrant community, what is needed. I did not develop these programs because I dreamt them up. Many of the intervention,

Terry Gock:

the substance abuse prevention, the bicultural parenting, positive Asian youth development kind of work, it's because the people in the community, my staff, says this is what we know, this is what we hear is important to develop.

Terry Gock:

Somehow, I had this knack of writing grants. Now, English is not my first language, and I don't like writing, but I was able to use these grants, which are good in the sense of not just about providing services, but evaluating the effectiveness of those services that we try to do.

Terry Gock:

These are the applied research that I was very drawn to. That's where the substance abuse prevention with the Asian immigrant populations, the positive youth development programs. Even on conflict resolution, how do we help Asian youth

Terry Gock:

to address bullying, and conflicts when they're immigrants and speaking is not necessarily their forte because that's not their first language. In school, in conflict resolution, the teacher would tell them to say I don't like it when you do this to me.

Terry Gock:

They don't have the language to do that. So, how do we do something that is more culturally consonant to both their developmental level as well as cultural experiences? For example, we would use intermediaries and mentors,

Terry Gock:

and so on. How do we do this? Working with them in different ways. We are and substance abuse is the same. Similarly, what would help to prevent kids from getting involved in drug use and so on, and that is culturally

Terry Gock:

and appropriate, especially with immigrant kids. And a lot of it, it becomes also educating and working with their parents. I always work in collaboration, that in that sense, all these things that we were doing is, I always say that I could create the frame in my writing the proposal,

Terry Gock:

but it is my staff that put the flesh on it to make it alive. The wonderful thing about all these grants is that failure is not only okay, it is encouraged as we learn from it. Something that didn't work, we will change it.

Terry Gock:

That's also a little bit countercultural because with my Asian culture, 'A' is not good enough, it has to be 'A+'. I still remember that I came home with a report card and all they could see is what is not 'A'. We have been able to do something different.

Terry Gock:

I think perhaps being gay, being Asian, as you say learning about integration, learning about myself, helps me to be more attuned to being compassionate to others too.

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah. I mean, I think, for sure, I mean, it's that way in my own life. And my own work, I definitely think it makes a big difference.

Betsy Kalin:

Something else I wanna talk about that we haven't really touched on yet is about your relationship with your partner. Can you talk about how you met and how long you've been together?

Terry Gock:

Next February will be 14 years. Wait, is it 14? Yeah, it will be 14. We met,

Terry Gock:

as we jokingly said, in the modern way, we met online. The thing that caught my eye with him is his profile. It's a little bit different--not I like to go to the movies. I like to walk on the beach and those kind of stuff,

Terry Gock:

but he said that at the end of each day I asked myself three questions. "Did I have fun?" "Did I learn something?" "Did I make the world a better place?" I said, Hmm. I think he was the one that winked at me or whatever. We met and we defied

Terry Gock:

the rules of those kind of meetings. The rule was that you don't go for more than a coffee because you may want to exit soon. But we talked, it was an afternoon, we had some drinks actually at his place, that was supposed to be it, then we went for dinner

Terry Gock:

and we kept talking. We talk about things that's not just about us, but about faith. He's Jewish and I'm Christian and we have different faith perspectives, yet it's very consistent with each other. We are and before we knew it, we closed the restaurant at 11.

Terry Gock:

That was the beginning. And it was on February 16th, 2008, I think, something like that. Yeah. 14.

Betsy Kalin:

Can you say his name, Terry?

Terry Gock:

His name is Michael, Michael Zeldin. It has been a really, really fantastic loving relationship, connection.

Terry Gock:

I could not be more thankful to have this wonderful soul to be my partner in this part of my journey. The interesting thing that we both said was that we , it's not literal, but it's pretty much true that if we had met each other like six months before that we probably wouldn't be interested in each other. He came out of

Terry Gock:

a marriage of 30 years and , and he was still exploring. And I was dating after the breakup relationship a few years back. But we say what we have learned from our past relationship make us ready for this one.

Terry Gock:

We talk about everything. So, wonderfully from faith to where we're going to go for dinner. It's been very, very supportive. Before the pandemic on our 12th anniversary, we had a blessing of our relationship

Terry Gock:

and by a rabbi and a priest and under the chuppah with all our families and including his children and grandchildren. It was very, very meaningful for both of us, and to have all of them there.

Terry Gock:

We have come to a point where we could spend more time with each other that we are both working much less and be able to do other things. I see it continuing to grow and it's just so very comfortable, so very wonderful.

Terry Gock:

I cannot be more thankful and I cannot thank him more.

Betsy Kalin:

Were you impacted by same sex marriage?

Terry Gock:

Interestingly, I work so much professionally with all these resolutions to make sure that we could impact

Terry Gock:

public policy on same sex marriage. Yes, for we always knew that civil marriage has its own benefits as well as it is about legal rights and privileges and has less to do with love.

Terry Gock:

It turns out that for us because of Michael's children and grandchildren, as well as from my side of family, we want to make sure that what we want to leave to them is what we want rather than all these marriage actually could muddy it up because we know that it could be,

Terry Gock:

there could be, contests by some people, so we are not married. In a way, I planted a tree that I wasn't going to be sitting on which is wonderful, which is wonderful. We have our legal cohabitation kind of agreement and everything

Terry Gock:

so to make it very, very clear. And that's why the religious and the public declaration of our relationship was that much more important. To have the grandchildren, there are three who live just across the street from us.

Terry Gock:

They still haven't figured out how to call me. They still call me Terry, and I say, it is fine, I don't want grandpa . So, I have a really, really fun time. They're wonderful.

Terry Gock:

I jokingly, as well, not so jokingly, during the pandemic it's so good to be to see them and for them to be willing to come over and watch TV, and so on. I don't mind watching the same episode of the Mandalorian three times. but that's another story .

Terry Gock:

Yeah, but Michael and I, I just love his soul.

Betsy Kalin:

That's great. That's beautiful. Thank you. Thanks for talking about Michael. So, we have about 10 minutes left in the interview, and I just wanted to check in with you to see if there's anything that I haven't brought up that you feel is important to talk about.

Terry Gock:

Well, the only other thing that I may want to add is about my faith journey. That's a little bit,

Betsy Kalin:

Yes, that's my next question. I wanted to know, how do you feel spirituality has impacted your life and how it has impacted your activism?

Terry Gock:

I think it's very tied to it because --

Betsy Kalin:

Can you say your faith journey or spirituality, however you frame it?

Terry Gock:

My faith journey certainly has a big part in my social activism as well as my community work. I mean in my Catholic days as a teenager, I was very much into community services

Terry Gock:

and working and working with those that are, I mean, I follow that revolutionary Jesus, that that certainly is, is much more aligned with the marginalized and oppressed. And so, equality and so on has always been that part is important,

Terry Gock:

as well as I have come to learn from other faith traditions as well. We, and I now call myself a Christian with a Buddhist and Jewish streak. and because Michael, and I'm saying Michael and I, we jointly are members of three temples and one church.

Terry Gock:

My spiritual connections ground my work. It has been a journey, I certainly struggle with it, especially

Terry Gock:

when the religion was a source of our oppression and non-acceptance and struggling with it, and actually MCC Troy Perry's church, gave me a perspective that you can, it's possible, it's possible not only is this possible, it could be joyous that you could be gay and Christian, and

Terry Gock:

although until the last, maybe 20 years, with the Episcopal church that I integrated a lot, but there has been so many teachers along the way. They ground me in my work, especially the Buddhist understanding of non-attachment. So, I'm not attached to results, I try not to.

Terry Gock:

Sometimes it's disappointing, one step forward to two steps back and then three forward. And it is about what to me is what we learned from it. What I learned from it and how could I continue the work, and the Christian part about hope also has been very helpful for me, especially in those down times. You know, we have many,

Terry Gock:

with Prop 8, the early years with the Briggs initiative in California, as well as, you know many of these other, very negative things that happen all over country, now with transgender issues and so on, that teaching about hope

Terry Gock:

is very helpful. One of my pastors and mentor said that as Christians, we're Easter people, there's always that hope. And I try to remind myself in those down times. It grounds me.

Betsy Kalin:

Yeah. I call myself a PBJ which is a pagan Buddhist Jew.

Terry Gock:

love it, love it, love it.

Betsy Kalin:

And my wife also, she went to Catholic school growing up, that was the thing. So, we had a Jewish wedding cuz her last name is chew

Terry Gock:

I love it. I love it. Yeah. Because I mean,

Terry Gock:

the faith journey of everyone is so wonderful. I always think, I've learned enough to know that there's no one path and so yeah. PBJ is just fine. Yeah.

Betsy Kalin:

Great. So, our last questions are the same ones we ask for everyone and they're intended to be

Betsy Kalin:

just short answers. So, if you could tell your 15-year-old self anything, what would it be?

Terry Gock:

Be yourself, less worry about what others think.

Betsy Kalin:

Great. Thank you. And then do you think there's such a thing as a queer superpower and if so, what is it?

Terry Gock:

Yes, I do believe so. It is born out of our working on and overcoming all the kinds of forces of oppression and it gives us a sense that creativity that think the kind of thinking

Terry Gock:

and the kind of approaching things with perspectives that could be different. I mean, I don't wish it on anyone, so many of the angst and emotional difficulties that we go through to get closer to that. However, I think that, to me, in that sense is a superpower. We are special in a good way.

Betsy Kalin:

That's great. I love it. I love it. No one said that. That's great. Mm-Hmm . Okay. And then why is it important to you to tell your story?

Terry Gock:

I've said it throughout part of this interview, it is important to tell the story because others need to see that there are others out there. My perspective

Terry Gock:

hopefully becomes food for thought, stimulus, for others in terms of their exploring who they are. And I hope that they'll go greater heights than what I have done for the benefits of the communities that we all love.

Betsy Kalin:

That's great. Thank you. And then OUTWORDS is the first national project to capture and share our history through in depth interviews.

Betsy Kalin:

What is the importance of like OUTWORDS? And please mention outwards in your answer.

Terry Gock:

OUTWORDS project is very important and is in that way of both keeping the history and of our experiences of our diverse experiences

Terry Gock:

and because of the project it is not just one perspective, it's very amazing, different perspectives and experiences that and as I say, hopefully become helpful, useful stimulating for others and hopefully to be able to see also some of us who have gone through some of these

Terry Gock:

had people that whose shoulders we have stood on and hopefully that they will bring it to great Heights.

Betsy Kalin:

Terrific. I think that's it. Thank you,

Terry Gock:

Terry. Thank you so much, Betsy.

Betsy Kalin:

It was a pleasure meeting you.