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Guy Seiler was born in Wichita, Kansas in 1955, the fourth of nine children in a German Catholic family, and raised on a wheat farm to the steady drumbeat of chores and church. He knew from an early age that he was gay. Remarkably, he felt no shame. It helped that he had a cousin named Diane. Together, they played dress-up for hours with Diane’s mom’s dresses.

Guy went through public school, graduated from Kansas State University, and in 1977 moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico to begin a nearly 25-year as a teacher and school administrator. After teaching middle school language arts and high school drama, Guy served as assistant principal at Albuquerque High for two years, principal of Los Lunas High School for four years, and for another four years he was superintendent of public schools in the small town of Mountainair, an hour south of Albuquerque. 

But Guy’s most life-changing moment came in 1996 when he met Bert Herrmann, who had come to Albuquerque looking for land to build a sanctuary for handballing, more commonly called fisting. Bert had written Trust, the definitive fisting manual, which covered everything from hygiene to the spiritual components of fisting. By 2000, Guy and Bert had committed themselves to each other as life partners. Together, they created the fisting retreat Bert had dreamed of in Tajique, New Mexico. But Bert became ill, and in 2013, he passed away on the island of Maui.

Today, Guy divides his time between New Mexico and Maui. OUTWORDS came across his and Bert’s story through a chance meeting, and it seemed like a unique opportunity to capture not only Guy and Bert’s story, but also to shine a light on an often misunderstood or parodied aspect of gay sexuality. On a chilly morning in February 2018, Guy warmly welcomed our team to the sanctuary he and Bert built.

Just two weeks after his OUTWORDS interview, Guy was in Palm Springs, California visiting friends when he was introduced to Juan-Manuel Alonso – another OUTWORDS interviewee. Guy and Juan-Manuel promptly fell head over heels in love. OUTWORDS can claim no credit for bringing these two men together – but we still feel like proud parents to their blossoming relationship. And we are quite sure that wherever Bert is, he is celebrating, too.  
Guy Seiler: [00:00:00] I look okay?
Michael Brewer: We just have a conversation, ignore the camera.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: They're not going to hear my voice on there so if you could as much as you're comfortable incorporate the question in the answer that way they'll know exactly what you're talking about.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Natalie Tsui: Actually, I'm going to make a tiny adjustment. He's just a little turned away from you. I'm just going to scoot you a little bit, so if you could just take your weight off just the tiniest bit.
Natalie Tsui: [00:00:30] Oh yeah, that's great.
Michael Brewer: Still speeding?
Natalie Tsui: Yeah [inaudible]
Michael Brewer: Okay, alright, first of all tell us your name and also spell it for us.
Guy Seiler: My name is Guy Seiler. Guy, G-U-Y. Seiler, S-E-I-L-E-R.
Michael Brewer: Okay, Guy-
Natalie Tsui: Wait, one second. Now the plant is sticking out of his head.
Natalie Tsui: [00:01:00] Okay, let's see ...
Michael Brewer: While we're still doing that, can you tell me Bert's name and also spell it for us also.
Guy Seiler: [00:01:30] Bert Herrman. B-E-R-T. Herrman is H-E-R-R-M-A-N.
Michael Brewer: Okay.
Natalie Tsui: This plant is... well actually [inaudible] closer to him. It should be further away. [inaudible]
Michael Brewer: Let's cut the camera...
Natalie Tsui: Speeding.
Michael Brewer: Okay, tell me where are you from?
Guy Seiler: [00:02:00] I grew up in Wichita, Kansas and I was there for 21 years of my life.
Michael Brewer: Okay and what was it like growing up in Wichita. And you can also tell me about your family. What family life and life in general.
Guy Seiler: Very good [crosstalk] I was the fourth out of nine children-
Michael Brewer: [00:02:30] Start it off by saying "I was born in Wichita"-
Guy Seiler: Okay, I was born in Wichita, Kansas in 1955 and I was the fourth out of nine children. There were seven boys and two girls. I grew up on a farm and it was an interesting life, needless to say, and I was raised Catholic there in Kansas. It was a German Catholic community
Guy Seiler: [00:03:00] and I remember at that particular time Vatican II had just basically been incorporated. I learned my altar boy prayers in Latin before switching over to English in 1963; I believe is when the year was. I was raised in that particular community, like I mentioned it was pretty much all a German Catholic community.
Guy Seiler: [00:03:30] We went to mass each morning before going to school. We also had religion, which was before school actually got started, at nine o'clock and then we went for the day until three o'clock in the afternoon. Then later I went to high school in a nearby... There were about five different catholic communities there and we all consolidated and went to one high school, which was Andale High School,
Guy Seiler: [00:04:00] which was just right west of Wichita, Kansas. Then later I went to Kansas State University and went there and I was a speech communications major from 1973 until I graduated in 1977 and shortly after that I moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico. So I've been in New Mexico for 41 years.
Michael Brewer: [00:04:30] Tell me a little bit, give me a little bit a sense of family. What did your parents do, what did they farm? What kind of work did they do and the hierarchy of the siblings. Just tell us [crosstalk] where you came in there and also just tell me what kinds of things, what kind of values, family values were important during that time and [inaudible].
Guy Seiler: Very good. Being one of 9 children,
Guy Seiler: [00:05:00] I was the fourth out of that particular group of 9. There were 4 of us that were born all a year apart. Then there was a 3 year skip and then there were 4 more of my siblings, and then there was a 6 year skip and then my youngest brother Gavin was born. Again, I'm 1 of 9, there are 7 boys and 2 girls. All of us, our first names begin with G. My father's name was Gilbert and it was Gilbert, Greg, Gordon, Guy,
Guy Seiler: [00:05:30] Gary, Gwen, Gerard, Gayle and Gavin. So there's the 9 children. My mother was a housewife and a mother when we came home from school. We always had dinner ready for us. We called it breakfast, dinner and supper on the farm. It was a wheat farm. We had chores to do every day. We knew exactly what our responsibilities basically were.
Guy Seiler: [00:06:00] When you have 9 children you pretty much know that you have to do your job, you have to pull your weight, otherwise you're going to make somebody else have to do additional work. It was an interesting life. I enjoyed it. The values were absolutely wonderful. My parents taught us the value of hard work. I think I started my first job
Guy Seiler: [00:06:30] when I was 12 and that was at a concession and handing out ice-skates at the Silver Skate Ice Arena in Wichita, Kansas. We all learned how to ice skate. My oldest brother was a dancer so those were some of the things we did. But again, hard work, my father was a farmer and in the winter time
Guy Seiler: [00:07:00] when he wasn't farming, he was building sheds. We actually, sheds as well as granaries and things of that nature because we had a company called Seiler & Sons Construction and so we always had work to do and jobs that we could work at when we came home from school. There was always that hard working ethic.
Michael Brewer: [00:07:30] So what was Guy's chores?
Guy Seiler: It's interesting. Guy was the fourth and so as the fourth child my oldest brother Gilbert and Greg and Gordon, the three older brothers, they basically were out helping my dad on the farm. They had more of the farm responsibilities. Mom didn't have any help so I learned how to cook and I learned how to bake and I was the one
Guy Seiler: [00:08:00] that was inside helping my mother do a lot of the different chores. I remember, as a kid, I would experiment baking cookies. That was probably my favorite thing to do was baking, so all through my life I was a decent cook and so I did learn that. Then later, when my sisters came along,
Guy Seiler: [00:08:30] which was my sister Gwen, she learned how to cook from my mom and myself and then I went outside and I did more of the chores there. We milked cows for our own consumption. Basically, we had 3 cows that we milked. So each morning and every afternoon we were milking cows and those were the primary chores that we did have when I was a kid.
Guy Seiler: [00:09:00] Then in the Summertime it was either bucking bales. We had lots of land, my father farmed about a thousand acres. So we had alfalfa fields and we would get on the trailers and bale the small bales of hay, which were approximately between 80 and 120 pounds. So I kept in shape basically by
Guy Seiler: [00:09:30] bucking bales in the summertime because oftentimes we would get four different cuttings of hay throughout the Summer. My father allowed us or should I say, we were told that we could go out for sports in the Fall and in the Winter. But we needed to be, you know in the Springtime we couldn't go out for track or baseball we had to pretty much do our farm chores at that particular time. In High School
Guy Seiler: [00:10:00] I played football and then I also played for the C.Y.O which is the Catholic Youth Organization. I played basketball, I was tall, I wasn't a very good basketball player but that was part of some of the things I did as a kid. I enjoyed it.
Michael Brewer: So now, were you, the kids, were you guys expected to take over the farm? Or were you in a hurry to get out of Wichita? What was that about?
Guy Seiler: [00:10:30] Well, as far as who the farm, would necessarily turn around and do the farming after my father had retired. It was decided early on that my brother, who had a farm right next to my father, he would take over most of the farming responsibilities after my father did retire. My dad actually worked until he was about 70, on the farm,
Guy Seiler: [00:11:00] then he decided that he wanted to take care of my mom more so and relax a little bit. My older brother Gilbert is farming now all of the land there in Kansas. So it worked out fine. My second brother is a veterinarian there in the area and my third brother Gordon, he and I were very close. Unfortunately he passed away a couple of years ago. He died of acute myeloid leukemia.
Guy Seiler: [00:11:30] My oldest brother was the stem cell transplant donor and the transplant actually went very well. But then my brother, after he had the transplant, 5 months later, his body started to reject it. So, unfortunately he passed away about 2 years ago. My brother Gary, he's there in Western Kansas. Almost all of my siblings are still in Kansas with the exception of my sister Gale.
Guy Seiler: [00:12:00] She lives with her husband and family up in Wisconsin. So I have had two of my siblings have passed away, my brother Gerard passed away back in 2007 when a balcony, that he and his wife and their 2 children were at a summer party, it was May 5th of 2007. They went to a Cinco de Mayo party there in Kansas
Guy Seiler: [00:12:30] and unfortunately a balcony where a number of people were standing on fell and my brother was killed instantly in that particular accident. My mom had passed away in 2002, so she wasn't around to see the death of my brother Gerard.
Michael Brewer: I think we may have heard of that. I think that may have been on the news.
Guy Seiler: Yes it did. It was on the news.
Michael Brewer: So do you get to go back to Kansas or ... I mean to Wichita?
Guy Seiler: [00:13:00] I do. I go back. I'll be back in April. One of my nephews is getting married in April and I have another niece who is getting married in September. I have 39 nieces and nephews, and I don't know how many great-nieces and nephews there are. But many of them have kept within the Catholic way and keep having children.
Michael Brewer: [00:13:30] Tell me, I understand that music was important to you and tell me why music was important.
Guy Seiler: You know music was one of the things we heard a lot of Christmas carols, in German actually. We learned a lot of our Christmas carols in German. My grandmother spoke fluent German and my mother spoke German until she was in the 3rd Grade. So we had some music around but it was only vocal music, we really didn't have enough money to buy instrumental music,
Guy Seiler: [00:14:00] instrumental pieces of equipment so that we could play music. I always remember one of my classmates, Mary Aust, she played the piano and it was one of the things I kind of desired to do. She was a close friend when I was in elementary school and I did one Christmas though I asked for an accordion and my uncle Russ, he played the accordion
Guy Seiler: [00:14:30] and he was very good at it. Plus, he knew how to play the keyboard also and the piano and so he was instrumental, I think, in many ways that I took an interest in music. Unfortunately, I didn't learn or we didn't have the instruments around the house to actually play at that particular time. But now as an adult, that's one of the goals in life that I'm learning how to play the keyboard.
Michael Brewer: [00:15:00] It's never too late.
Guy Seiler: It's never too late to learn, that's for sure.
Michael Brewer: First of all, tell me how do you identify?
Guy Seiler: As gay. Yes, I definitely...you know and I knew I was gay when I was probably 4 years old. My earliest recollection was probably when I was 4. Much of that was,
Guy Seiler: [00:15:30] I had a cousin, my cousin Diane was just 5 months younger than I and we were best of friends growing up and everything and we lived just 2 1/2 miles apart. So my mom and my aunt Tilly were real close. My aunt Tilly was the oldest in the family and my mom was like the fifth I believe of nine children. Anyway, my cousin Diane and I were real close
Guy Seiler: [00:16:00] and I remember that we would play dress-up, always. Her mom had a room with all of the dresses and the clothes and you know everything you could possibly want. There were suits, kind of on one side of that particular room and there were dresses on the other side over here. Well Diane and I liked the dresses a lot better than we liked the suits. At an early age I knew that I was probably gay.
Guy Seiler: [00:16:30] It was something that I was really never ashamed of. I just knew I was different. I was comfortable within my own skin. I knew that it was fine. In elementary school too I had a friend who went to one of the other Elementary schools where the 5 different Catholic communities
Guy Seiler: [00:17:00] all combined and we all went to one High School like I had mentioned. He went to Andale High School or Andale Elementary School and I went to Saint Joseph Elementary School. I just remember we'd get on the phone and we'd talk for hours. We'd met because all of us had gotten together basically at a function
Guy Seiler: [00:17:30] where we knew the kids from the other elementary schools who were all going to be coming into the same High School. It was in my 8th Grade year that I befriended a close friend, who is still a friend to this day, Kent. We would talk for hours on the phone and you know that was probably my first crush
Guy Seiler: [00:18:00] on a guy at that particular point. So I've identified as gay for many, many years.
Michael Brewer: I was going to say did it go further than talk on the phone?
Guy Seiler: It was, you know I would spend some time at his place because he was one of only 6 kids whereas mine was 9. We didn't have quite as much room to invite friends over at that point.
Guy Seiler: [00:18:30] He had his own room and everything so he would invite me over and it was more of an interest in each other's bodies and more talking and more of experimenting a little bit. But it never went more than just a touching at that particular point in my childhood shall I say. So those were
Guy Seiler: [00:19:00] the things that I remember probably most but I know that there was that closeness that I felt with him that I didn't feel with anyone else and especially now with girls at that particular point. I definitely knew I was interested in guys and boys.
Michael Brewer: OK I'm going to come back to that. So how did the family feel about the dress up and you know? Is the water in shot?
Natalie Tsui: [00:19:30] Yeah it is.
Guy Seiler: Sorry.
Natalie Tsui: You just have to wait until he finishes drinking.
Michael Brewer: Yeah, yeah. That's good.
Guy Seiler: Sorry. As far as, you know, I know that my parents probably knew that I had an interest other than in girls at that particular point even at the young age you know.
Guy Seiler: [00:20:00] I remember one Christmas I was interested in, I didn't want a doctor's kit I wanted a nurses kit. You know and I had asked Santa Claus for a nurses kit as opposed to the doctor's kit, not that women couldn't be doctors at that particular point. But I was just more interested in that particular role I think that I felt. And I know my parents talked to me and said, are you sure you don't want a doctor's kit and I said no,
Guy Seiler: [00:20:30] I want a nurses kit. They were pretty cool with that. You couldn't find a nurses kit you know at that time and so I think that I did get a doctor's kit or whatever. But my parent's pretty much knew when I was young that I did have more of an interest. We didn't talk about it, that was something that was not discussed. But you know,
Guy Seiler: [00:21:00] for the most part, sex was really not discussed either when I was a kid, except in the religion classes where there was 6 inch rule where you didn't get that close to any of the girls at all. Well I wasn't interested in the girls, I was more interested in the guys so it really didn't bother me at that point either. My parents, I'm sure knew, it just wasn't discussed.
Michael Brewer: They were still loving and supportive.
Guy Seiler: [00:21:30] Yes. My parents were very loving and very supportive. My father even more so than my mother, which was really interesting. My mother was very protective of me and I knew that being the 4th and I worked side by side with my mom for all those years until I went and worked on the farm with my dad. But my dad was a very gentle man. He was someone that I know was empathetic as well as understanding
Guy Seiler: [00:22:00] and just a kind and generous person throughout my life. After my mom died in 2002, my dad lived until 2009 and we became really close friends. He brought his, he was the oldest of 6 boys and he brought all of his siblings here to the bed and breakfast
Guy Seiler: [00:22:30] and their wives and they, my mom had already passed away at that particular point but the women did no cooking, they did no cleaning. They played cards, they went to the casinos, they had a good time. My father was extremely proud of bringing his siblings here with their wives. So my dad, we could just kind of sit and talk and it was really great. And,
Guy Seiler: [00:23:00] Bert my partner was actually older than my dad's youngest brother, so Bert was more like a younger brother to my dad than anything else.
Michael Brewer: OK we're going to talk about Bert also. But now you mentioned also that you did have some experience with girls.
Guy Seiler: Yes.
Michael Brewer: My question I want to ask, tell me about your experience with girls.
Guy Seiler: [00:23:30] Yeah my experience with girls was basically through High School. I dated through High School, which was pretty much the thing to do. It was like you're on the football team because everybody else, all the other guys are on the football team. You date, because all the other guys are dating girls. So that was pretty standard that everybody was dating. I had no real qualms about dating.
Guy Seiler: [00:24:00] It was more of a friendship though. As far as actually having physical contact, the only thing that I really ever did was kissing a girl, otherwise I wasn't interested in anything else and I never sex with a girl you know prior to college. In college I did, but in High School I never had sex with a woman at all.
Guy Seiler: [00:24:30] I knew that I was gay I just didn't act on that because it was probably taboo at that particular point, or it wasn't accepted shall I say in this German Catholic community. So to fit in with everyone else I basically was dating girls. It was movies, going out to dinner, things of that nature.
Michael Brewer: [00:25:00] I was going to say, being on the football team, being attracted to guys and then having to role play, you know, love what everyone's expected. That must have been a lot to think about.
Guy Seiler: You know, it was interesting, when I was in High School, the term gay or fag was rarely, rarely used. And it was interesting, I didn't hear it and if I did it was,
Guy Seiler: [00:25:30] I heard it probably more in college than I did in High School. I think people in High School were kind of conscientious or conscious about the word gay or fag but it was never said or used. So I was pleased that at least I wasn't called a fag when I was in High School. I was accepted like everyone else.
Guy Seiler: [00:26:00] I did the normal things. Like I said I played football, I dated but my heart wasn't really in the dating, there's no doubt about that. The camaraderie that there was with the football team it was fine. Everybody got along. It was pretty much the thing to do. I was popular in school.
Guy Seiler: [00:26:30] I had probably had more female friends in High School than I did male friends. I was the student body President of the High School where I went. So I know that, and I ran against two other individuals, one was a girl in my class and the other one was the Quarterback for the football team and I happen to be a guard on the football team and nothing major there.
Guy Seiler: [00:27:00] I was a popular kid and people didn't criticize or didn't make fun of me or, I was very accepted in High School. So, I had a very good experience. The fact that I was a tall kid and well liked made it easier for me.
Michael Brewer: So are you saying that you fit in to what society expected? But you had a secret. Or that people knew but they still liked you?
Guy Seiler: [00:27:30] I think that, you know that I did fit in to the particular mold that there might have been in the High School to live a straight life so to speak, with the dating and being on the football team. But, at the same time, people were accepting because I was friends with a lot of girls
Guy Seiler: [00:28:00] as well as with a lot of guys. Usually we just all went out together as a group and that was uncommon and unusual at that time. There were a lot of people that just dated individually, whereas oftentimes with a lot of my classmates we would all go out together as a group and just did a lot of our High School partying as a group.
Guy Seiler: [00:28:30] So I fit in and at the same time I think that people probably knew that I was gay but it was really never discussed. I felt like I grew up in an understanding community. When I went back for my 40th class reunion, my partner died that year. He died in 2013 and the number of people that I received sympathy cards from and at the 40th class reunion,
Guy Seiler: [00:29:00] the number of people that came up to me and extended their condolences to me, it was mind-boggling that they had come around to and understood that Bert my partner for life and my soulmate, just like their husband or their wife was. So it really was an accepting community also.
Guy Seiler: [00:29:30] May I take a drink again?
Michael Brewer: Yeah yeah. How much time have we burned so far?
Natalie Tsui: We've only been recording for half an hour.
Michael Brewer: You did say that in College that you had girlfriends and that you had sex.
Guy Seiler: [00:30:00] Yes.
Michael Brewer: That seems that, I wouldn't have thought that. But, tell me about it.
Guy Seiler: OK. Yeah in college I did have a female that I took a liking to and again it was a little bit of a faade but at the same time it was more of a friend than anything when I think back on it. I mean, sex was OK.
Guy Seiler: [00:30:30] She was actually the second woman that I ever had sex with. But there were only 2. So in college, my freshman year, I didn't do any dating whatsoever and then in my Sophomore year I found a young lady that I took an interest in. It turned into a little bit of a, not a romance necessarily as probably as much as it was...
Guy Seiler: [00:31:00] Not a romance necessarily as probably as much as it was just more of a sexual encounter, shall I say, at that particular point. It was at that same particular time that I decided that this was not who I was, and I needed to live my life. It wasn't something that I knew
Guy Seiler: [00:31:30] I wanted in my life. It was the very next year that, my junior year in college, I decided that it was important to get out of that particular relationship. I had gone to a retreat for the Newman Center, which is the Catholic student group there at Kansas State.
Guy Seiler: [00:32:00] All universities have a Newman Club or Newman Center. I met a young, vibrant Catholic priest who I talked to about my interest in men and that I was dating this woman and it was a relationship, but it really was not a happy relationship. We talked a long time about that particular being true to myself and how-
Natalie Tsui: [00:32:30] The fridge, the fridge just kicked on. [crosstalk]
Michael Brewer: Okay. I was to going to say ... Hopefully, we can-
Natalie Tsui: Hold on.
Guy Seiler We need to go back to that one?
Michael Brewer: I'm going to [inaudible]. You're going to tell us about the ... Are we rolling?
Natalie Tsui: Yeah, we are.
Michael Brewer: Okay. You can tell us about the retreat and the experience with the person,
Michael Brewer: [00:33:00] but we're just going to condense it a bit. I'm going to ask you, so you were in the relationship with the young lady for-
Guy Seiler I was in the relationship with the young woman in my sophomore year in college. I think we met in the spring of my sophomore year. It was more of a friendship as well as a sexual encounter.
Guy Seiler [00:33:30] I knew that I was still interested in men more than I was interested in women, but I was trying to see if indeed that was the case. I knew I wasn't bisexual, I knew I was gay. I was sure of that. At the same time, I'd really never had sex with a woman except one. That was a short encounter, and one time.
Guy Seiler [00:34:00] So, I thought I would try to have sex again with a woman. My sophomore year in college, I was dating a young lady. Then that went into the fall of my junior year. It was then in the spring of that junior year that I went to a retreat at Rock Springs in Kansas, and it was all the different Newman Clubs from officers from around the state of Kansas met there.
Guy Seiler [00:34:30] I met this young Catholic priest, and we talked about being in a relationship and I-
Michael Brewer: I'm just going to back up a second. Just tell me what a Newman Club is-
Guy Seiler Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. The Newman Club is a student organization, it's the Catholic student organization, for colleges. Every college has basically a Newman Center. Then there's a Newman Club, which is the group that students there at the Catholic Center belong to.
Guy Seiler [00:35:00] I was an officer with the Newman Club. We went to this retreat at Rock Springs there in Kansas, an outdoor campsite, basically. It was in the spring of that year. It would have been 1976. I met this Catholic priest, and we started talking. We talked all night until the sun came up the next morning,
Guy Seiler [00:35:30] I remember. Basically I said I was dating this woman, but I wasn't serious with her and I knew I was gay. I basically needed to get out of that particular relationship. So, when I returned back to K State that spring after the retreat, that weekend, I talked to this girl and I said, "I need to end this. I'm not being true to you.
Guy Seiler [00:36:00] I'm not in love with you. It just needs to end." At that particular point too, I had talked to some guys that I knew and I started dating men at that particular point. I had a couple different relationships my junior year right after that.
Michael Brewer: What advice did the priest give you?
Guy Seiler [00:36:30] The priest actually told me, he said, "The thing that you need to do is be honest with yourself and make sure that you're not leading this woman on and that if you're not happy with your life as it is right now, you need to make some major changes in your life." We talked for hours. I said, "Is this the right thing?" He said, "Well,
Guy Seiler [00:37:00] if you're not feeling comfortable dating women and you're more attracted to men, then that is the right thing that you need to be doing." I didn't think I would probably get that advice from a Catholic priest necessarily, but it was the correct advice and it was the right advice. If all Catholic priests would give that advice, if you're in love or if you are attracted
Guy Seiler [00:37:30] to a particular sex, there's nothing wrong with that. You have to follow your heart at that particular point. I knew I wasn't interested in women and I was interested in men. So, I needed to follow my heart.
Michael Brewer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Tell me about Bert. When did you ... Well, no. You're not going to tell me about Bert yet. Okay ...
Michael Brewer: [00:38:00] With the Catholicism of the church today and today's news, you hear a lot of things that are going on in terms of molestation or these kinds of things within the church. Did you see anything like that or experience anything like that?
Guy Seiler [00:38:30] When I was a kid, the priest that came to the parish where I grew up and went to school and everything came when I was in the first grade. He was not a pedophile. He was not interested in boys at all. He was there all through my elementary school, all through high school as well as all the way through college. I already had moved to New Mexico,
Guy Seiler [00:39:30] and he was still the same parish priest that was there all of those years. So, as far as having any priests who molested me or took an interest, no I didn't. For me, Catholicism ... When I heard of priests molesting young boys, that was not an experience that I had at all. I didn't go through that.
Michael Brewer: [00:39:00] Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. You remain a devout Catholic today?
Guy Seiler I'm not. One of the things I think that ... Growing up as a Catholic, I think I learned a lot of things about the religion, and I think I felt a closeness to my family as well as the religion at that particular point met my particular needs.
Guy Seiler [00:40:00] I later made the decisions that Catholicism did not meet all of my needs. I was hoping that as the Catholic Church kind of evolved that they would be accepting of gays within the church. Unfortunately, that didn't happen under Pope John Paul II. It was during that particular time too that
Guy Seiler [00:40:30] I stopped going to Mass. Again, it didn't meet my needs. I was hoping that Pope Francis would openly welcome gays into the Catholic Church. If he probably would have done that, many would have left and there would have been a break in the Catholic Church because there are those conservatives out there and then there are those that are much more liberal
Guy Seiler [00:41:00] in their views as is my view on abortion, as is my view on gay rights, as is my view on sin in and of itself. I think that we as human beings are perfect beings and we don't have sin ... God made us to be perfect. We're all perfect beings.
Guy Seiler [00:41:30] So, Catholicism at it stands right now in my life, my family, almost all of my siblings still practice, but I don't go to Mass. If I have a wedding or a funeral to go to, I will go to Mass at that particular time, but practicing on a regular basis, I do not.
Michael Brewer: Are you involved with any religion, any spirituality?
Guy Seiler [00:42:00] As far as being involved in religion, I'm not religious. I would say that I'm spiritual. I do meditate. I read a lot. It's interesting, I read many books on religion, actually, and on Buddhism and the different sects.
Guy Seiler [00:42:30] The book I just finished reading recently was one called The Secret Societies Bible. It talks about many different religions as well as the Masons, as well as Judaism, as well as the Rosicrucians, and just many different aspects of secret societies and why religions necessarily are a part or are necessary, shall I say, for so many people
Guy Seiler [00:43:00] that they have to have that in their life. They feel the need for a religious background or some sort of a spiritual background. I would say that I'm spiritual. I believe that there is power greater than I. That, I do believe. I believe that we are all part of God. We are all God-like. Therefore, I don't need religion to emphasize that I am God-like and I am part of God.
Michael Brewer: [00:43:30] You know it within.
Guy Seiler Yes.
Michael Brewer: Well, what advice would you give someone then who's feeling guilty about their sexuality, or their behavior, or-
Guy Seiler The advice that I would give ... Like I mentioned, I have 39 nieces and nephews. In that particular group,
Guy Seiler [00:44:00] I know one of my nephews did come here and he married his husband here. I also have a niece who's a lesbian, and she has gotten married to her partner ... I'm sorry. She did not marry her partner, but she was with a partner and she has since separated. I emphasize, I have been probably a good role model. My partner and I,
Guy Seiler [00:44:30] Bert, and I were good role models for all of my nieces and nephews. I think that they saw the happiness that the two of us had and how much we shared with each other and for each other. So, as a role model, I know that my nieces and nephews certainly have benefited. It's a different generation than
Guy Seiler [00:45:00] now the younger generation, everybody talks about being gay, or straight, or whatever and it's easy. When I grew up, it was a little more difficult, yet, it wasn't difficult for me the way my family basically accepted. Even all of my brothers and sisters, they loved my partner Bert and accepted him. He would go back to Kansas for the Christmas holidays.
Guy Seiler [00:45:30] Every year, after my mom passed away in 2002, my dad still wanted to have Christmas dinner at the house. It was big tri-level home and it was nice. There were over 100 people always there for Christmas dinner. Bert and I would go in a couple days early to start getting things prepared. We would bake a couple turkeys, and hams, and things of that nature.
Guy Seiler [00:46:00] Bert was like ... It was Uncle Guy and it was Uncle Bert. Everyone accepted us. It was absolutely wonderful.
Michael Brewer: Okay. Okay. Now, tell us about Bert. Tell us more about Bert.
Guy Seiler Tell us more about Bert.
Michael Brewer: How did you guys meet?
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: How did you know that you were soulmates?
Guy Seiler May I?
Michael Brewer: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have some water.
Guy Seiler [00:46:30] All right.
Michael Brewer: Just tell us what kind of guy he was and how you guys met.
Guy Seiler Very good. This is the most fun part. My partner Bert and I, we definitely were soulmates. We met in 1996, it was in Albuquerque. Bert had come to New Mexico. He was looking for a place to build a fisting sanctuary ...
Guy Seiler [00:47:00] Excuse me. First he went to the Northwest. He went to Oregon and was looking for a place there in Oregon to build this fisting sanctuary that he had envisioned while he was living in San Francisco. He felt that the Northwest was way too rainy. It was too rainy in Oregon, and he wanted something where there was more sunshine.
Guy Seiler [00:47:30] So, he decided to come to New Mexico and look down here for some land. He wanted to find a place that was far enough out in the wilderness but was close enough to a large city with hospitals as well as an airport. He looked around here. In the process too, he came down, and one weekend while he was here there was a fisting party in Albuquerque
Guy Seiler [00:48:00] that was hosted by a gentleman by the name of Dave who had a pride gym in Albuquerque. He would do these parties once a month. Bert went to one of the parties, and in the parties or at the parties, there were usually about 20 guys that were at the parties, between 15 and 20. He'd put out a flyer that had our names,
Guy Seiler [00:48:30] our email addresses, phone numbers, things of that nature and a little bit about the individual. Bert was at this first party that I had met him at, and I talked to him and he said he was coming to this particular area because he was looking for some land so that he could build this fisting sanctuary out in the wilderness. So, we talked a little bit that particular first night
Guy Seiler [00:49:00] that we met. We didn't play that particular night. Bert said, "Well, I didn't play with you because I felt like you were too gorgeous, and I didn't know if I was up to your standards." I felt I didn't play with him because he was the expert on fisting and I was just kind of new to it. I had experienced it a little bit, but I wasn't real experienced.
Guy Seiler [00:49:30] So, we didn't play that particular night. We talked though. Then the next time he came into town when he was still looking for land to build this fisting sanctuary, he stayed with some friends in the North Valley in Albuquerque and they were unavailable. So, he had kept that sheet that Dave had put out, and he called me and said, "Would you be interested in getting together?" I said, " By all means. Stay with me for the weekend
Guy Seiler [00:50:00] while you're in town looking for land." So, he did. We hit it off really well. He did find the 60 acres out here where we are today, and then he started the construction. He actually got the plans all approved and started the construction of this particular home.
Guy Seiler [00:50:30] When he'd come back from San Francisco, he'd come here to New Mexico, fly into Albuquerque, he would always stay with me. So, once a month when he'd come in while the construction of the house was going on, he would stay with me. We became friends at that particular time. Then he had put out a newsletter in San Francisco. It was called Trust, the Newsletter.
Guy Seiler [00:51:00] He was advertising, and he said, "Envisioning a fisting sanctuary in the Southwest," and anybody that was interested in possibly becoming a part of this sanctuary, he was inviting men who were interested in fisting to come and possibly be a part of this sanctuary.
Michael Brewer: Okay. We're going to revisit that in a minute.
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: [00:51:30] From what I'm hearing, you didn't learn about fisting from Bert. You found out at an earlier ... you're going to tell me about that.
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: Also, explain as if you're talking to someone who really doesn't know exactly what fisting is. Tell me what it is. Then tell me about your first experience before you met Bert.
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: We're going to go back. We're going to jump back.
Guy Seiler Very good. My first experience with fisting ...
Guy Seiler [00:52:00] Fisting is basically the use of a person's hand, and you would basically form it into a swan shape, and definitely use plenty of lubrication on the individual that you might be fisting, or if you are being fisted make sure that you have plenty of lube. Most people use Crisco or J-Lube when they are playing and they're fisting.
Guy Seiler [00:52:30] Basically, it's the insertion of the hand into a man's anus. It could be a woman also for that matter. It's just the insertion of the hand into the anus. My first fisting experience was back in 1984. I was a teacher at Albuquerque High School. I was a drama teacher,
Guy Seiler [00:53:00] and I had taken a group of students up to New York to see some plays. While I was there, I happened to be in an area where there was a gay bar right next door. I noticed that there were a lot of men milling around, and so I decided to make sure that the students were in bed and taken care of. There were security guards on the floors, so I knew that all the students were going to be fine
Guy Seiler [00:53:30] that I had on this particular trip. Then I went to the gay bar, and I was there for probably a drink or two. I invited this young man home with me. We went back to my room, and we started playing around. One thing led to another, and he was playing with my ass and he said, "Oh," and he was playing with his hand.
Guy Seiler [00:54:00] He said, "Are you into that?" I'm sitting here saying, "I don't know what that is necessarily." All of a sudden ... He had very, very small hands, and he was pushing a little harder and a little harder and just lubed me up enough so that he inserted his entire hand into my ass. I'm sitting here ... It was euphoric at that particular time. I didn't know exactly what had just happened,
Guy Seiler [00:54:30] but I knew I liked it and I knew I wanted to do this again. That particular night had to end at a point. I didn't know who he was. He was a hustler as it turned out, because he said, "Am I going to get paid?" I'm sitting here saying, "What do you mean?" He said, "I do this for a living. I'm a hustler." I gave him some money.
Guy Seiler [00:55:00] I don't remember what he asked me for, but it was like, "Oh my God." More experiences. I had never been with a hustler before. Needless to say, I'd never been fisted before. It was an interesting experience, and I knew it was something that I liked. I came back to Albuquerque after that. I didn't get fisted again for probably another seven years.
Guy Seiler [00:55:30] It was in 1991 that I actually had experienced being fisted again. In the meantime, I was pretty versatile and it was just primarily fucking and sucking more than anything else, but no fisting. I know that I had bought more dildos. At that time, I wasn't buying them online.
Guy Seiler [00:56:00] I went to the bookstores in Albuquerque. I know I picked up one when I was back in Baltimore one time, this enormous one that I thought, "Oh, I'll never be able to take this." Well, the dildos went from smaller to a little bigger to eventually a larger size. That's basically how I was able to stretch my ass enough so that I would be able to take a fist again.
Guy Seiler [00:56:30] In 1991, about seven years later, I was at the bar in Albuquerque and a guy from Santa Fe hit me on. We were just kind of talking and everything. He said, "Well, what are you into?" I said, "Well, I'm versatile. What do you like?" He said, "I'm strictly a top." I said, "We can go back to a hotel
Guy Seiler [00:57:00] or whatever and play. If you want, you can come to my home and we can play there." We did go to a hotel first, and we were playing a little bit there. Then I said, "No, this isn't really the best place to play right now. Why don't you come back to my home?" So, he came back and we started playing. I put in a video and it happened to be a fisting video that was on.
Guy Seiler [00:57:30] He said, "Are you into fisting?" I said, "I haven't been fisted for at least seven years," but I said, "I've been practicing with dildos and they've gotten larger, so maybe I can possible take your hand." We were playing, and I think we both fell asleep at one point. He was still trying to get inside of me. Eventually, around five o'clock in the morning, it was like he was able to slide inside of me.
Guy Seiler [00:58:00] Again, I felt that euphoric feeling that I had had seven years earlier that a cock did not satisfy like a hand did. It was just an incredible feeling. That was the second fist that I had ever taken. After that, the friend from Santa Fe and I got together pretty often.
Guy Seiler [00:58:30] He was in a relationship, but he also liked to play. His partner didn't play a whole lot, and so we would get together probably once or twice a month. We did a lot of fisting at that particular time. That was some of the exposure that I had. Then I also met another guy from Santa Fe who ...
Guy Seiler [00:59:00] his partner was not into it but he was into it, and so that gave me that experience.
Michael Brewer: Is fisting addictive?
Guy Seiler A person could say that it may be addictive. I think it's the euphoric feeling that you have and then going deeper inside and knowing, and feeling, and actually
Guy Seiler [00:59:30] experiencing the hand, and stretching necessarily. There is a stretching that does take place as it goes into the sigmoid and into the descending colon. As it's going into the descending colon a little bit, it's opening you up. I felt just the energy
Guy Seiler [01:00:00] and the warmth that there was with fisting too. It was just an experience that I knew I wanted to continue feeling that experience. Then the friend, Dave, in Albuquerque who had a lot of fisting parties, he owned Pride Gym and he would have parties like once a month. He would set up slings for guys to come in. It was there
Guy Seiler [01:00:30] that I started experiencing other guys who were also into fisting. He first started having some of the parties at his home. It was at his home which is where I met Bert, that was where I had first met Bert. Then that's when we were talking. That was in 1996 that I first met Bert.
Michael Brewer: Okay. Well, tell me about the party. You didn't know that Bert was a fisting ...
Michael Brewer: [01:01:00] that he was a fisting expert at that time?
Guy Seiler Exactly.
Michael Brewer: Okay. Tell me, did you see him across the room, or did you even notice him? How did he look? Just describe this atmosphere.
Guy Seiler Okay. Bert-
Michael Brewer: You can say, "A lot of fellas there." You can tell me the ages. Just tell me-
Guy Seiler [01:01:30] Yeah. At the party, there were probably, like I mentioned, maybe 15 to 20 different guys. I saw Bert and I didn't talk to him initially. Different people were saying, "Well, that's Bert Herman. He wrote the book Trust, which is the handbook on fisting." I'm sitting here saying, "Oh my God." I had heard of it, but I had never read it. We ended up playing with different people ...
Guy Seiler [01:02:00] We ended up playing with different people there that particular night. I didn't stay very late on that particular evening. I do remember though that Bert and I sat down at one point, and I did talk to him about the book. I know that he picked up the brochure with all the guys that were at the party, and I likewise picked up the one also. That was the first time that I had met him
Guy Seiler [01:02:30] back in 1996, and that's when he was coming, you know, here to New Mexico trying to find a place to build a fisting sanctuary. It was at that particular time to, that I had taken in more of an interest in it, and I had played with Dave who hosted some of the parties so I was getting a little bit more experience, I felt like I knew a little bit more about fisting than I had in the past.
Guy Seiler [01:03:00] I was primarily more of a fisting top, than I was a fisting bottom at that particular point, because I was not able to take a large hand, but Bert had very small hands, so I was appreciative of a very small hand at that particular point. I noticed that he had small hands, and so we talked,
Guy Seiler [01:03:30] and it was later when he came into the city checking on the construction of the house that he would stay with me. During that particular time, once a month we would get together, and we would play, and then we kept in contact and when he actually physically moved here in 1998. He moved into the house here, March of 1998 and he came with his mother,
Guy Seiler [01:04:00] she was diagnosed with senile dementia, and they were going to be putting her in an Alzheimer's wing in New York and his brother had his family still, and didn't have room in his home to take her and therefore Bert said, "I will take her out here in New Mexico, she can come and live here, I've got plenty of room I have four bedrooms"
Guy Seiler [01:04:30] And there was only one gentleman who had shown interest in possibly coming out here as a fisting sanctuary from San Francisco. He actually stayed here in this particular room, where he lived with Bert for a while, while also his mother was in the other room, here in the house, and Bert was taking care of her at that time. Bert would come into the city, usually on Tuesday or Wednesday of the week, and get groceries.
Guy Seiler [01:05:00] So he went into Albuquerque once a week to buy groceries. Then every weekend I would come out to visit him. We would get together twice a week always, during that particular time, beginning in 1998. On the Tuesday or Wednesday when he'd come into the city, we would always play, and it was just this euphoric feeling
Guy Seiler [01:05:30] that I had, and a closeness. I felt we were making love and it was something that I felt the energy, I felt his energy, and he felt, you know the energy was flowing back and forth between the two of us, and it was absolutely wonderful. I'd come out here on weekends, every weekend I would come out. I'd come Friday night, and we'd play on Friday night, and then
Guy Seiler [01:06:00] we'd play Saturday afternoon, and we'd play again Saturday night, and Sunday afternoon. We'd play one more time before I went back into the city because I was still working, and I was working with the Albuquerque public schools at that particular time.
Michael Brewer: So fisting with Bert was different?
Guy Seiler It was. Fisting with Bert was different because he ... it wasn't that he explained what was happening,
Guy Seiler [01:06:30] he instead was showing, and was just moving at a very slow pace, and at the same time was gentle with me. It was like checking in with me. There was that eye contact too. He had eyes that glistened. I could look into his eyes, and he could look into my eyes, and there was that connection
Guy Seiler [01:07:00] that we had. We were making love. It wasn't just harsh sex. Which sometimes people do equate fisting to harsh sex. When Bert wrote the book "Trust" it was the handbook on handballing, and handballing is actually more of a connection than just fisting. It isn't just another asshole that you can stick a hand into.
Guy Seiler [01:07:30] It's actually connecting with the individual, and understanding, and loving, and caring for that particular individual. That's what it was with Bert and I too. The energy that flowed was just so incredible, and the colors. I would see colors when we were playing, and I'd reach orgasm and he'd reach orgasm
Guy Seiler [01:08:00] almost simultaneously. It was always wonderful. We played all the time, it was almost every day that we would make love to each other, and we called it play too, because it was so much fun, and play is fun. That's what it was for us. We would invite a third, oftentimes, it would be other guys, and some of the friends that I talked about in Santa Fe.
Guy Seiler [01:08:30] He would join us, and there was a nice connection. Bert and I would talk about that too. When there was the three of us playing together. I like to have my nipples played with, and Bert would often say, if he was fisting me, he would say "Guy really likes to have his nipples played with." There was that connection too, that was going on with the three of us.
Guy Seiler [01:09:00] We would talk about it, and there was some guys that we played with, the connection wasn't quite there. They were fun to play with, but it wasn't the real feeling of the energy flowing. If the energy was flowing we knew that we wanted to play with this guy again, and it did happen with a number of guys, that we would play again.
Michael Brewer: [01:09:30] It sounds the way you were describing it, that it reaches a spiritual level, and I read in the book about the Kundalini, and can it be spiritual?
Guy Seiler I truly believe that the handballing or fisting, whatever you want to call it, I think the term fisting caught on much faster than handballing itself. It is, it is very spiritual, it can be, it can be. If the energy is there
Guy Seiler [01:10:00] and the connection between the individuals are there, you know there is this energy flowing, and it is a spiritual feeling, and the Kundalini energy is moving up through you. You are just feeling it, and like I indicated, I see colors. I would be playing with Bert, and other guys too, where I would see the blues, the auras, the different colors coming through,
Guy Seiler [01:10:30] and playing. Sometimes it was a yellow, there'd be some yellow colors coming through. Then it would be a lighter blue color, depending upon what level a person was reaching within that spiritual Kundalini energy that was happening, but there would be the light blues, and then there would be some of the darker blues, and different chakras, reaching the different levels of the different chakras,
Guy Seiler [01:11:00] and everything. Oftentimes I would experience the real bright golds, the real, wonderful, brightness of gold. I think the yellow energies and the blue energies are higher levels of energy that I experienced, especially with Bert.
Michael Brewer: Tell me, explain to someone who doesn't know about the book "Trust",
Michael Brewer: [01:11:30] and briefly just tell me what "Trust" is, who wrote it, what it's about.
Guy Seiler Bert Herrman wrote the book in the 90's.
Michael Brewer: Let's start over. Just say Bert Herrman wrote the book "Trust."
Guy Seiler Okay, may I?
Michael Brewer: You could say maybe it wasn't anything like that at that time. It was new, it was groundbreaking, and just tell me why.
Guy Seiler [01:12:00] Yep, okay. Bert Herrman wrote the book "Trust" which is the handbook on handballing or fisting. He wrote the book because there was nothing out there that people could actually go to and look at for a reference. It is a reference book. If you go to any bookstore or go online, you'll find
Guy Seiler [01:12:30] that it is a reference book on fisting or on handballing, and in there it talks about all of the different things as far as the preparations that would be necessary if a person is into fisting or into handballing. What they need to do as far as cleaning out is concerned. What you want to do is taking water with a nozzle or hose,
Guy Seiler [01:13:00] in the shower, and you can actually take the water up into the colon, and then you can flush out any debris that there may be inside the body. So it talks about the cleaning out that is necessary in preparation for it. Also it talks about the different kinds of lubes that a person would use, if they're into fisting, what they can do.
Guy Seiler [01:13:30] What may lead up, also to fisting itself as far as people being able to take larger, and larger dildos, and then eventually they may be able to take a smaller hand, and then eventually a little bit larger, and so on and so forth. Some people are into width, and other people might be into a little bit of depth. The book "Trust" does talk about the cleaning out process. The possible lubes that a person could use.
Guy Seiler [01:14:00] Gloves, the necessity to use gloves, especially if a person has any cuts or sores on their hands, things of that nature. The safety that's involved. He also talked about how the fisting community during the AIDS epidemic was oftentimes blamed because there were a lot of guys that were into fisting who were dying of AIDS. He talked about, at that particular time,
Guy Seiler [01:14:30] many of the guys were sharing lubes, and they actually were spreading HIV at that particular time, and they weren't careful with the lubes. They weren't careful with necessarily also using gloves. "Trust" talks about all of those particular things. It also talks about the role as a bottom. It talks about being a good bottom, not being a pushy bottom,
Guy Seiler [01:15:00] necessarily, but being a bottom who allows the top to be able to get inside. It isn't the top forcing themselves into the bottom, but instead, allowing the bottom to pull the top in and allowing the top, the entrance into the ass at that particular point. It does talk about the role of a bottom,
Guy Seiler [01:15:30] necessarily, and the role of a top. All of those particular things are in there. It talks about the Kundalini energy that people experience, and if they're fortunate enough, and many people are fortunate to be able to feel the energy flowing through the body. If there is that wonderful connection between the two individuals who are fisting,
Guy Seiler [01:16:00] it's absolutely wonderful. Interestingly enough too, Bert and I always, always ... he never fisted me when I was on all fours. It was always, I was in a sling, and we were always looking at each other in the eye. That was looking at each other's inner beings, or in a soul, whatever you might want to call it.
Guy Seiler [01:16:30] There was that connection, and to this day I like ... when I'm fisting a guy or if I'm being fisted, I always like to be in a sling or have a guy in a sling, so that I can see the expression on their face. To see their eyes. To see, oftentimes my eyes would roll back into the back of my head, I knew they would just absolutely go. It was because it was just so much excitement,
Guy Seiler [01:17:00] and euphoria, and energy that was flowing at that particular point. I recommend, and it isn't talked about in the book, but the sling, to look at the individual in the eye really is looking into that individual too.
Michael Brewer: So "Trust" you would say would be required reading?
Guy Seiler Definitely " Trust" is a required reading. It is absolutely the best,
Guy Seiler [01:17:30] and the first book that is out there on the subject of fisting. I know another one did come out later, and I know that Bert had picked it up at one point. It has a lot of similar information and everything. Just recently I had 500 more copies of the book printed up because it's selling. Typically
Guy Seiler [01:18:00] I would sell anywhere between 15 and 20 books in a month's time. People are still picking it up all the time. It can be purchased online.
Natalie Tsui: Maybe this is a good point to pause [inaudible]
Michael Brewer: What is a sling?
Guy Seiler A sling is an apparatus that's usually hung from hooks
Guy Seiler [01:18:30] either in the ceiling or in beams, here in the house. Actually there are four different places where slings can be hung. Bert designed the house so that there were places that slings could be hung. They are chains, basically that come down from those particular four hooks, and then it's a leather framed apparatus that a person can lay back into.
Guy Seiler [01:19:00] They can lay back into it so that they're able to take the hand at that particular ... their body is configured in such a way that a person's hand can slip right into the anus. Slings are comfortable. It needs to be at a certain level for the top. You can lower or raise it. Here at the house I can lower or raise the chains so that
Guy Seiler [01:19:30] if a person's taller, then it would just be raised so that it's comfortable for the top as well as the bottom.
Michael Brewer: Okay, now Bert, it seems like, was a visionary, and he had this vision that he was looking for out here of having a community. What was that about?
Guy Seiler Yeah, when Bert found the land, it was 60 acres.
Michael Brewer: Start with this, Bert had a vision on.
Guy Seiler [01:20:00] Okay, okay, very good. Bert had a vision that he wanted to have a fisting sanctuary here in the Southwest. He had gone to Oregon, and looked, and decided that it was just too rainy, and too wet. He wanted to be able to have something so a person could play inside as well as out. He had a vision that he wanted to create a fisting sanctuary,
Guy Seiler [01:20:30] and in the newsletter called "Trust", the newsletter, which was published there in San Francisco by Bert. He had written in there that he had envisioned a fisting sanctuary in the Southwest, because he was looking for land and found 60 acres. He put that information out to the public, in the gay community, that he was gonna start a fisting sanctuary. When he designed this home then,
Guy Seiler [01:21:00] he also designed it in such a way that there would be four bedrooms. There would be a shared bath, with those four bedrooms, and there would one kitchen. There would be one dining room area. One living room area, and then a meditation room. It was designed so that at least four guys would be able to be here.
Guy Seiler [01:21:30] Who were of like mind and who enjoyed fisting, and also felt that spiritual connection with fisting. So he put that information out to the community. Eventually there was one gentleman that did move in here with Bert and his mother. Again, it was designed in
Guy Seiler [01:22:00] such a way that there's a place in the living room, right by the fireplace, where a sling can be hung from the beams. There's also a place in the courtyard from the beams that I could hang a sling there. There's also one on the front portal of the house. So there's inside as well as out that there's places for slings that could be hung. There were different weekends
Guy Seiler [01:22:30] that we actually, when I moved in later, I came out here and Bert said I fell in love with the house first, and then I fell in love with him. There's some truth to that, but at the same time I fell in love with him because I kept coming out here, he kept coming into the city. It grew, and our relationship grew in such a way that I had no problems putting my house on the market in Albuquerque and coming out here.
Michael Brewer: [01:23:00] In a nut shell would you say that Bert had a vision where he wanted a retreat area where people could come and feel comfortable around like minded people, and also be there with nature as opposed to a city. That it was like an Eden?
Guy Seiler [01:23:30] Yes, Bert did have the vision to be able to expand. Initially when he bought the acreage, his vision was to have a fisting sanctuary for four guys living here in this particular structure. Then he had also talked about eventually building on, and he had designed a plan, and had shown me where there would be another house with another four bedrooms in it or more.
Guy Seiler [01:24:00] Because there could be this one central kitchen but there would probably be another kitchen, but he wanted a fisting community out here. He also had, at that particular time, back in 1993, 94 had talked about the fisting sanctuary in the Southwest. He had also written up the fact that he wanted to be off the grid. Where he would have,
Guy Seiler [01:24:30] there would be its own well system. He also talked about having solar panels. He knew how much sunshine, New Mexico gets about 350 days of sunshine a year. He knew it could be off the grid, so even back in 1994 he had talked about being off the grid and having its own community out here, and he wanted to have a large fisting community here in New Mexico.
Guy Seiler [01:25:00] Obviously the solar panels and things were put on in 2010, so it happened many, many years later, but it was all part of his dream. There were weekends that we would invite different people from across the country, in for fisting weekends. That was our way of trying to get more people interested, and possibly moving here to the Southwest.
Guy Seiler [01:25:30] It never died, we kept having it. We didn't start having the fisting parties and weekends until after his mother passed away in 2002. So it was in 2004, 2005, 2006 that we started having some of those particular get away weekends.
Michael Brewer: So is fisting[crosstalk]
Natalie Tsui: Gotta cut.[crosstalk]
Michael Brewer: Okay, just list those things. You know, you said the preparation, the lubes.
Guy Seiler [01:26:00] The gloves, and how the body operates.
Michael Brewer: Yeah, talk about that, because people may not realize that, and that helps with safety and helps with pleasure, or whatever, and then also the spiritual aspect.
Guy Seiler Right.
Michael Brewer: So okay, so now just tell me about the book "Trust" and why it's important and meaningful.
Guy Seiler Okay the book "Trust" again, written by Bert Herrman, it is a must read for anyone that is interested in fisting
Guy Seiler [01:26:30] or handballing because it does, it talks about the necessary preparation for the bottom. The types of food that a person should eat prior to fisting. Which is also an important thing. A person can wash things through a little easier if they have a warm beverage. If they have a hot cup of tea or something like that
Guy Seiler [01:27:00] so when they are cleaning out. So there is that preparation for the cleaning out process. There's also the lube that would necessarily be used or that's available out there on the market, and the types of lubes that could be used. Also there is the things that are used as far as gloves. Making sure that you use gloves. Oftentimes a lot of guys will use poppers.
Guy Seiler [01:27:30] Poppers helps also as far as making it a little easier for the bottom to be able to get into if they can use poppers. Some guys like popper, others do not, it's up to the individual. Does it help? For me, yes it does help. It kind of just lets the mind ... it's a quick rush where the blood flow goes,
Guy Seiler [01:28:00] and there's a quick rush of blood that opens me up, and I'm able to take a fist a lot easier. Sometimes, I know that in the book, Bert talks about the community oftentimes doing heavier drugs, and he talks against using any of the heavier drugs that are out there. 420, using marijuana, if a person needs a little bit of marijuana to relax,
Guy Seiler [01:28:30] or a little alcohol to relax, that's fine too. Those are some of the different things that are talked about in the book. I highly recommend all those. He also talks about the anatomy. When he talks about the bottom, understanding their anatomy because you're going into the sphincter and then into the sigmoid, and then into the descending colon on up. It does talk about the anatomy of an individual,
Guy Seiler [01:29:00] and making sure that you're not forcing the hand in, the fist in. But instead you are gently moving the fist into the colon itself. Some guys can take it just right past the wrist. Others can take it near the elbow. Also in the book it talks about that feeling that a bottom has once
Guy Seiler [01:29:30] a person's hand is in and getting past the knuckles and getting into the wrist. At that particular point, there's that euphoric feeling that oftentimes comes. Some people are into depth, and it is talked about in the book, that when a person gets past the elbow, that's a similar type feeling as a guy when they first get past the knuckles and get past the wrist for the very first time.
Guy Seiler [01:30:00] So there is more of that euphoric feeling even going on in there. Then it goes into the Kundalini feelings. The energies that a person shares with the person that they are making love to at that particular point. It is a must read material for anyone that is interested in fisting, and it has really picked up. The number of copies of "Trust" that I sell now today,
Guy Seiler [01:30:30] I had to go out and get some more copies printed up because there is a great demand for it. I see more and more guys talking to me about it, and more and more guys interested in fisting. It has grown in popularity. There are lots of fisting parties that take place. I was in Berlin this past September,
Guy Seiler [01:31:00] and every night there was a fisting party that the guys were going to. You're seeing more and more guys getting into it, and just taking an interest in it, and experiencing it for the first time. They typically will start out with a smaller hand, and then could possibly graduate to a little bit larger hand, and everything. Also it's talked about a double fisting, being able to take two hands.
Guy Seiler [01:31:30] And again, you don't punch a person, when you first start fisting. You form the hand into a swan like figure, and you go in very gradually. The top has to feel the anatomy of the bottom. Every bottom is shaped a little differently and how a person is going to come into that particular anus.
Guy Seiler [01:32:00] So you just need to gradually feel and move in very, very slowly, and be able to open up the bottom enough so that you can get past the knuckles there. But again, it's slowly, and the bottom is in control, not the top, but the bottom is the one that's in control because they are the one that is allowing and their body movement often times, in the sling, or on a bed,
Guy Seiler [01:32:30] will tell the top that they are able to take just a little bit more. Just a little bit more, you know you can put a little bit of pressure on there, but again, the bottom is the one that's going to pull the top in. The top may need to keep the pressure on until the bottom can actually suck the top in. So it's a euphoric feeling, and more, and more guys are -feeling. And more and more guys are getting into it
Guy Seiler [01:33:00] because they're heard a lot about it but they're not sure if it's safe. It is indeed very safe. And there is that trust that's involved, between the top and the bottom. You should talk about it and communicate, too. You're going to have the trust of the bottom as well as the top.
Michael Brewer: So when you go to these events, you're like checking out, you're looking at hands or...
Guy Seiler [01:33:30] (laughter) When you go to one of the fisting parties, or one of the events, especially the one, it was Folsom Europe that I went to in September. They had a number of fisting parties. Yeah, a person can check out the hands, and they do look at hand sizes probably to determine. And they know if they are able to take a larger hand or not.
Guy Seiler [01:34:00] I actually have a medium size hand, that I have. But my hand is not real collapsible. And so it's a little bit larger for some people to take. I'm slow. I move very slowly with the individual and I say, "We'll go at your pace. Just understand that my hands don't collapse a whole lot." And so I'll play with you and I'll play inside of you a little bit.
Guy Seiler [01:34:30] I'll use plenty of lube. That's the biggest thing, too, is make sure that you use plenty of lube with your partner so that there's no friction and harshness. And if the bottom says, "No, I don't think it's gonna work," you have to respect that too. You can try it again later, or if you need to take a break during the playtime, that's fine also.
Guy Seiler [01:35:00] My left hand is a little bit smaller than my right hand, because I'm right-handed and I use it a lot. So I oftentimes will start with my left hand and then move to the right.
Michael Brewer: Is this something that's only for the LGBT community?
Guy Seiler No, actually, fisting is not just for the LBGT community. I know in Albuquerque, just here locally, that there is a pansexual group
Guy Seiler [01:35:30] that meets and they are actively involved in fisting. It's male and female. There are slings that are set up at the play parties. Bert and I went down to a pansexual party in Austin, Texas and there were men as well as women who were being fisted. And so no, it is for both genders
Guy Seiler [01:36:00] and there is that feeling that both the male as well as the female receive when they are being fisted. So it's open to both genders, indeed. And it is catching on. I know more and more people. The group in Albuquerque is called AEL. I get the emails all the time about the parties and Bert was asked to come and do, not a demonstration, but a talk on fisting.
Guy Seiler [01:36:30] So he did that at one of the AEL meetings in Albuquerque. He also three different times we went to a pansexual letter weekend in Austin. Why it was just Austin, I'm not sure. But we both like Austin and we have friends there. The very first year Bert and I played with the guy the night before
Guy Seiler [01:37:00] to see what the energy was going to be like. But then the day of the demonstration at this letter weekend, Bert fisted this gentleman with a huge audience. There were probably 60-80 people at this particular workshop that Bert was giving. And it was just incredible, the people, and they had lots of questions
Guy Seiler [01:37:30] after the demonstration. That was the first year, and the second year Bert said, "Do you think you would be the demonstratee?" And I said, "I'm not sure," but I did, the second year actually I did. We both took questions afterwards. There were questions of me.
Michael Brewer: What do people most, what questions do people ask most?
Guy Seiler The question that they ask most is, "What is that particular feeling like?
Guy Seiler [01:38:00] How can you explain that particular feeling?" Oftentimes there's the question about depth. How deep can a person actually go inside a person. Bert would sell a number of the trust books at that particular workshop. Not that that was his intention, his intention was to educate the community about what fisting was
Guy Seiler [01:38:30] the safe practices and the procedures actually on fisting itself. Those were the things that he talked about. And he did talk about all the different things in the book. I think the largest amount of questions came with that Kundalini energy that was experienced. People said they actually saw my eyes rolling back in my head
Guy Seiler [01:39:00] at the time that Bert actually slipped inside of me. I said, "It is such a euphoric feeling." I don't know how else to explain it except to experience it. There were a lot of men and women at that particular workshop.
Michael Brewer: Okay, one other thing. Now I heard in the way that you describe it you use the term you say, "I took a fist," or, "I take a fist."
Michael Brewer: [01:39:30] Is that a rite of passage or is it like you've gone to that point, it's an accomplishment or is it something that, not everyone is doing that.
Guy Seiler Yeah.
Michael Brewer: But to do that does that put you like in a camaraderie of certain groups.
Guy Seiler [01:40:00] It is certainly when I say, "I could take a fist," or, "I took a fist," when I use that particular term there are different websites out there that a person can go there for guys that are specifically into fisting. That's oftentimes how Bert and I would meet different guys and we would hookup and the three of us would play. We always play together,
Guy Seiler [01:40:30] Bert and I always play together with each other, because we knew that our energies were very much connected and that we hope that the third, and even a fourth, because there were times that four people would play, another couple. The four of us, the energy would flow nicely and smoothly. So when I say, "I could take a fist," or, " I took a fist," that doesn't necessarily mean that
Guy Seiler [01:41:00] it was something that I had a badge on, but it was something that I was able to do with enough experience and practice over time that it became easier, yet at the same time that feeling is always there, and it was always another wonderful euphoric feeling. The depth. Eventually with Bert I worked a little bit more on depth,
Guy Seiler [01:41:30] and he said once I get into the descending colon, and I move into the transverse colon, it's very, very soft and it's almost like, I can't remember exactly the word he used. It's like jelly. It's almost like the jelliness of the colon, and the colon opens up enough so that he can move his hand up through.
Guy Seiler [01:42:00] It was good. It was a wonderful feeling for me, too, on the depth. My hand was little big oftentimes for Bert. He wasn't versatile. It was difficult for me though to oftentimes get into him. I could get maybe four fingers and almost the wrist, past the knuckles, but it was a little difficult. While we were together though
Guy Seiler [01:42:30] he was able to take a smaller hand, which was good. One of the things that I emphasize too, for people getting into fisting, it's good to be versatile if possible. Because you understand, as the bottom, what that feeling is, and as a top, that you understand what the bottom is experiencing. And oftentimes Bert would almost always cum
Guy Seiler [01:43:00] while we were playing. I would ejaculate at the same time that he would. It was absolutely wonderful. And oftentimes tops will be able to cum at the same time that the bottom is cumming, so there is that ability for both to experience the pleasure of fisting as a top as well as a bottom. But if a person can be versatile, that's the best
Guy Seiler [01:43:30] so that they understand what it's like to be a good top and what it's like to be a good bottom.
Michael Brewer: Okay, now is there anything about fisting that I haven't asked that you want to share?
Guy Seiler Gosh. You've been very thorough.
Michael Brewer: With that we'll move on to the other subject and we may come back.
Guy Seiler Okay. I think that's probably pretty good.
Michael Brewer: [01:44:00] Okay. Now in addition to being a practicing Catholic growing up, I understand that you were also politically involved.
Guy Seiler Yes.
Michael Brewer: That you were heavy into, tell me how you were politically involved, what party, and why.
Guy Seiler Yep.
Michael Brewer: And what time, what age.
Guy Seiler As a young kid, my parents were Democrats. I remember as a very young child going door to door,
Guy Seiler [01:44:30] putting leaflets out for the Democratic party. So I was very politically involved. In college, I was a young Democrat. I was actively involved in student senate. In college for two years I was a student senator at K State or Kansas State University. There was always that political involvement in my family.
Guy Seiler [01:45:00] I remember the last election that my father voted in, I know that my father voted for President Obama. We talked about it. Interestingly enough, he asked the parish priest, a good Catholic, practicing Catholic, my dad went to mass every morning. I remember when he point blank asked me too, he said, "You know, I know you and Bert are partners
Guy Seiler [01:45:30] and I love you and I will pray for your soul like I will pray for the soul of all of my children." And I just cried. My father was that understanding and that wonderful of a man that he could accept my partner in life like he did any of his children. But yeah, my parents were pretty actively involved. I remember the first, Robert Docking was running for governor of the state of Kansas,
Guy Seiler [01:46:00] and I remember passing out leaflets at that particular time, so they were registered Democrats in the state of Kansas. There weren't too many of them, but my parents were there amongst them. And they were also poll workers, because you had to have Democrats as well as Republicans working the polls. It was easier to find Republicans in Kansas than it was to find Democrats. So I was actively involved as a child, then I was involved in the young Democrats.
Guy Seiler [01:46:30] And like I mentioned I was a student senator while I was at Kansas State University. I remember during that particular time, I was there at the same time that Sam Brownback was in school. So we were there together. Of course Sam Brownback later became the governor of the state of Kansas. Very, very conservative governor, as a matter of fact. We disagreed on a lot of different things even then.
Guy Seiler [01:47:00] It was interesting because Kansas University had a group of students that came before the student senate there at Kansas University asking if they could get funded for the gay student union that they were gonna start. There was all sorts of different student unions that were popping up at that particular time. Some for the Islamic student union and this student union and that student union. Just different ones.
Guy Seiler [01:47:30] There was a black student union, there was the Islamic student... Anyway, the gay student union came before student senate and asked there at Kansas State if they could get funded to start up a group there on campus. I remember at that particular meeting, it was tabled until the next meeting. But in between, and the meetings were once a month, and in between I had a lot of people calling me
Guy Seiler [01:48:00] saying, "Guy, will you support this gay student union that we are proposing here at Kansas State University?" And I said, "Yes, I would." I firmly believe in all rights for all individuals. At that particular point I had had my first experience too with a man, and so I knew that it was right and that it was not just the right thing to do for myself,
Guy Seiler [01:48:30] but for humanity and for the entire gay population. They did come the next month, gay student union group came before student senate asking...we thought they were gonna be asking for the money and they basically said we don't need to ask for the money because we have an outside donor that's allowing us to start up our group.
Michael Brewer: How about informing us just a little bit quicker, because of the time.
Guy Seiler [01:49:00] Okay.
Michael Brewer: I know it's hard. But I want to ask you, was politics important for the LGBT community or why is it important to be part of the LGBT community and active in politics?
Guy Seiler It's very important I think for the LBGTQ community to be involved in politics, because if we don't have an active voice and express exactly
Guy Seiler [01:49:30] what our human rights are like everyone else's. We are a part of the human society, we are human beings. If people don't get actively involved in politics, there is really no other voice that we can express and get our message out. I was just talking with my brother who is a conservative Republican.
Guy Seiler [01:50:00] We took a trip to Phoenix for a ball game and all along the way we were talking about politics. And he is seeing how important it is to have that voice. He understands that having a gay brother who can live his life and live his life openly and express his views, it is important. Because to suppress those particular views is wrong,
Guy Seiler [01:50:30] and it will only hurt our LGBTQ community if we don't get out and vote, for one thing, and don't get actively involved in politics. We have to get involved in politics. I'm so excited to see more and more people in the community who are running for public offices.
Michael Brewer: Let's see. I'm just gonna jump right over a couple of them. Why is it important for you to tell this story, what we're doing now, why is that important?
Guy Seiler [01:51:00] It's important to tell my story as far as, I believe that our youth are our future and if we don't educate, we have to educate. And not just our youth, but we have to educate my older brother, who's this Republican. If I don't go out there and educate him to what it's like to be a gay man,
Guy Seiler [01:51:30] I'm not doing my job as an individual and as a human being. Again, education is the key to our future. Through knowledge, we have power. It's so important that we share that information with other people. And we share it with the younger people, especially, in our schools. It's great to see the gay organizations starting up in high schools
Guy Seiler [01:52:00] and in middle schools and it's starting. Because we do know oftentimes at a young age that we're gay, and therefore it would've been easier for me if maybe there had been a gay group in high school or in elementary school that I could've identified with and opened up to and talked about issues with. Again, through education you gain knowledge,
Guy Seiler [01:52:30] and with knowledge is power. We have to be transparent in our views and in our ideas and share those. Sometimes people talk about the crazy Uncle Harry that's at the Thanksgiving table. Well I'm the fun Uncle Guy that's at the Thanksgiving table because all my nieces and nephews are cool with me being gay and were cool with Bert being gay. All their friends, they have lots of friends who are gay, so it's no big deal.
Guy Seiler [01:53:00] But again, we have to educate and we have to stay on top of things. We have to make sure that things are transparent. I see this administration as trying to hide a lot of things and I think it's-
Michael Brewer: So start that again, tell me, I was gonna ask you to tell me what do you think about today's political climate and you can use names.
Guy Seiler Yeah, today's political climate is one where, again, Trump for one thing is
Guy Seiler [01:53:30] so indecisive with almost everything that he does. But again, if we don't make him tell us his ideas about how we're going to educate or how we're going to accept and allow gay marriage to continue. If they would stop gay marriage,
Guy Seiler [01:54:00] all hell will break loose, believe me. Because right now the horse is out of the barn, so to speak. You're not putting it back into the barn at this point. We need to make sure that the legislators out there are moving forward and we're not moving backwards on gay marriage, on all gay rights, and on all gay issues. I applauded President Obama
Guy Seiler [01:54:30] and Vice President Joe Biden on coming out and basically accepting the gay population and saying, "Yes, we're all human beings. We have those rights and we need to grant those particular rights to all human beings." I worry a little bit about Trump keeping things secretive. I think that we need to make sure
Guy Seiler [01:55:00] that everything that happens is transparent and that we are making sure that we understand what he's saying and make sure that he sticks to keeping people with those rights that have been granted, which are all human rights.
Michael Brewer: (coughing) Why do you think, OUTWORDS, this project ... is my microphone [inaudible]?
Natalie Tsui: [01:55:30] The mic?
Michael Brewer: Yes.
Natalie Tsui: [inaudible]
Michael Brewer: Okay, okay. Just needs to be lowered, okay.
Natalie Tsui: [inaudible]
Michael Brewer: One thing, the OUTWORDS Project, this project that we're doing now, going and interviewing different people from the community, why do you think, or do you think that it's important?
Guy Seiler I think-
Michael Brewer: And use the word "OUTWORDS"
Guy Seiler [01:56:00] Okay. I think this OUTWORDS documentary is very important, because, again, we are educating all of community as well as outside of the gay-
Michael Brewer: I'm gonna stop you again.
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: Because it's not necessarily a documentary.
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: I know that it's going to be a book. If you could just say, "The OUTWORDS Project."
Guy Seiler Okay. Alright. Very good. This OUTWORDS Project is very important, because it will educate and through education, again,
Guy Seiler [01:56:30] is power and knowledge. Or through education is knowledge and through knowledge is power. This is so important this information get out to all people, especially our youth, but it will educate other people too, as to the gay community that we are professionals in the community,
Guy Seiler [01:57:00] we are white collar workers, blue collar workers, we are grandparents, we are sons, we are daughters, we are all involved, we are all part of the human race. This particular project is going to open up avenues for other people. I was a high school principal, I was a superintendent of school. For people to see a professional
Guy Seiler [01:57:30] who is out and who is open, who is gay, who had a wonderful partner, my life partner. It's so important that they hear our stories and know and understand that we are happy and we are healthy
Guy Seiler [01:58:00] and we are part of a society that's productive and willing to give to our community and to our children. It is very important.
Michael Brewer: Okay, very good. Let's see. How do you see the future?
Guy Seiler You know, I'm an optimist. It's always a glass half full with me.
Guy Seiler [01:58:30] I am. I'm an optimist. People talk to me and they say, "Well, I don't have faith if the young people didn't go out and vote in this last election." Well, they weren't all excited about the Democratic candidate at that point. Some were probably a little bit more excited about Bernie Sanders, as opposed to Hillary Clinton in that particular election. But a lot did go out and vote. And, again, we have to educate, we have to make sure
Guy Seiler [01:59:00] that we get people involved and I think that again is the key. And make sure that they understand the importance of their vote. And that they're vote does count. They talk to their friends, especially through the social media, and because they're talking to their friends in social media all the time, they will also get their friends out to vote also. I'm an optimist
Guy Seiler [01:59:30] and I think that our youth are actually our future. I definitely know a lot of young kids, because I educated a lot of these people, a lot of the young kids out there. They were wonderful. Absolutely the most wonderful people in the world. I do have a lot of hope for our future
Guy Seiler [02:00:00] and I know that they'll do the right thing, because they're more empathetic to the needs of the fellow human being. It's not about me so much. I think my generation necessarily it was, "Me, me, me, me." And I think that the younger generation is really helping out their fellow person. I hope that there are more jobs out there available and that some of the kids can stop living with mom and dad
Guy Seiler [02:00:30] and can get their own apartment or their own house or whatever they desire to do, because we need to create more jobs too for the young people. And many are doing quite well. There are still others out there that we need to create more jobs for. There are entrepreneurs out there, they're creative. I think I see that the young people and that creative vibe that they have, and that's why I also have faith and hope in our younger generation.
Michael Brewer: [02:01:00] Okay. What advice would you give to anyone who is contemplating coming out?
Guy Seiler The advice that I would give to somebody who's coming out is you will have the support there and understand that that support is going to be opened up to you. Yes, religions of some people may say,
Guy Seiler [02:01:30] mom and dad may say, "Well, but our religion talks against homosexuality and therefore I'm going to shun you." There's a lot of material out there that needs to be read. What the book "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality" has sold tons of copies. Bert published that particular book. It's written by Daniel Helminiak, a Catholic theologian and it's in its 12th printing right now.
Guy Seiler [02:02:00] It's also online as well as in paperback. Every state legislator in the state of New Mexico had a copy of that when they were talking about gay marriage here in the state of New Mexico. So, again, education is so important because it equals knowledge and knowledge equals power.
Guy Seiler [02:02:30] There's a lot of wonderful things happening. People need to read, people need to be aware, people need to be educated. Listen to different sources, don't just look at one source, but look at many different sources and then make an educated decision. That educated decision should be based on what is best for humanity.
Michael Brewer: [02:03:00] Okay. Let me just jump around again. I want to ask you, what is positive behavior information supports?
Guy Seiler Oh-
Michael Brewer: Use that phrase in there and tell me what part you played in it and what is it?
Guy Seiler Yeah, when I was the superintendent in Mountainair, New Mexico here I had an opportunity to listen to a speaker about positive behavior interventions and support. It basically is a program, it's a systematic approach-
Michael Brewer: [02:03:30] Okay, let me stop you, okay? Did you, you don't have to rush but when you were superintendent, a school superintendent?
Guy Seiler Yes.
Michael Brewer: Oh, okay. And just tell us-
Guy Seiler Okay, should I slow it down?
Michael Brewer: You can.
Guy Seiler Okay, alright, okay. When I was superintendent of schools for the Mountainair Public Schools here in New Mexico, I- Public school's here in New Mexico. I attended a conference,
Guy Seiler [02:04:00] and the conference talked about the positive approach to disciplines in schools. Oftentimes, schools are more punitive or kids feel like they're a more punitive place to be and therefore they don't want to go and like you and I, we like to be told that we're doing a good job. Well, students in the classroom like to be told they're doing a good job. Teacher's like to be told that they're doing a good job
Guy Seiler [02:04:30] and PBIS, which is Positive Behavior Interventions and Support is a systematic approach where students, as well as teachers, as well as administrators, all understand and know what the expectations are of all of the students, as well as teachers and administrators in that particular school and everybody then is understanding what those expectations are
Guy Seiler [02:05:00] and along with that, every person should be able to hear four positive comments for every negative comment that they hear. So, all of us like to be told that we're doing a good job and being specific with it though too and students like to be told that they're doing a good job and if a teacher is very specific as to what that particular student did and why they are giving them that praise
Guy Seiler [02:05:30] instead of being told oh, you did it wrong again. You know, you have to do this over because it's all wrong. No one likes to be told that. A teacher likes to be told that they're doing a good job in the classroom, they're actively engaging all of the students in that particular classroom instead of being told oh, you're just doing a crazy job. Suzy over there is sleeping and Johnny is creating all sorts of havoc in the classroom
Guy Seiler [02:06:00] and when I was a high school principal at Los Lunas High School, I would visit classrooms all the time and I would stay for maybe five, ten minutes at the very most in the classrooms and then I would usually jot down a note to the teacher and I would drop it off in their mailbox and they can read it later or if I had time I would drop it off on their desk as I was exiting the classroom and I would put on there things that I observed that I really liked that they were doing in their classroom
Guy Seiler [02:06:30] and maybe I did see a couple kids not paying attention and the teacher didn't necessarily get them actively engaged in what the rest of the class was doing and I would maybe put one comment. It was only one though. I'd always put three or four positive things and then maybe mention one thing to work on because we all have things we can work on to better ourselves and so, that's basically what that systematic approach is
Guy Seiler [02:07:00] that I used and also I talk a lot about trainings here in the state of New Mexico for the eight engagement strategies, how to get kids actively involved in the classroom and then I dove tail that in with the positive behavior interventions and supports program. So, the two of them work together so that you get actively involved. The kids in the classroom and at the same time, make sure you're giving them the praise for what they're doing in that particular classroom.
Michael Brewer: [02:07:30] Okay. So, now, what is the effect? What is the result of giving them the four positive comments and what are you trying to do?
Guy Seiler The effects of the positive behavior interventions and supports, along with the engagement strategies is that you can actually track
Guy Seiler [02:08:00] all of the discipline referrals that come into the office on a regular basis and as a high school principal, I saw too many discipline referrals coming in and I'd rather see fewer and fewer and because of the positive behavior interventions and supports, what students need and what teachers need and administrators is that we need to be reinforced as to exactly
Guy Seiler [02:08:30] what the expected behaviors are. If you give them the expected behaviors and you reteach them and you show them and you actually have them go to those particular settings. In other words, if a huge number of discipline referrals were coming in say from the cafeteria at lunch time. Well, then, you would need to go and reteach the expected behaviors in the cafeteria
Guy Seiler [02:09:00] and because you retaught those, the number of discipline referrals drops down dramatically. An example is at one of the elementary schools in Belen, New Mexico where I did the training and the teachers said that they retaught the expected behaviors. At Christmas time, they had a spike in discipline referrals in December and so, they retaught all of the expected behaviors in January and it went from 20 discipline referrals down to 2.
Michael Brewer: [02:09:30] Okay. So, would you say positive reinforcement helps youngsters and people in general feel better about themselves and they perform more positive? It had a positive effect that positive outcome.
Guy Seiler Yeah, definitely positive reinforcement created better outcomes for the teacher. The teacher was able to teach in the classroom, able to spend more of their time in the classroom
Guy Seiler [02:10:00] on actual academic subject matter as opposed to disciplining the kids in the classroom. The kids felt better. I would sit in classrooms and I would say how is this particular teacher? Do you like this particular teacher? And I'd hear them using all sorts of positive comments towards the kids and the kids would say man, I love this class because the teacher is so positive and I saw that happening in so many different classrooms
Guy Seiler [02:10:30] and so, district wide in Mountainair, what we did was we taught the expected behaviors in all of our schools and so, all of the expected behaviors were known and the teachers then would use those positive comments with the kids when they did things correctly and then the end results were fewer discipline referrals, kids liked school a lot better, the attendance rate went up in those particular classrooms, kids didn't ditch classes
Guy Seiler [02:11:00] because all the teachers had the same expected behaviors in all the classes and they rewarded the kids with positive comments as well as possibly there might be a pizza party or something like that for the class that had the fewest discipline referrals in that particular month, whatever it might have been but there were some tangible rewards that went along with some of the things
Guy Seiler [02:11:30] with fewer discipline referrals or with more positive comments that were given by the teacher and again, we as human beings like to be told that we're doing a good job because you're going to get better results when you're actually told that you are doing a great job and a kid will turn around and they'll perform even that much better for you. Same way with teachers.
Michael Brewer: [02:12:00] Is there some way that could be related to people in the LGBTQ community in terms of helping with the stain or helping with positive reinforcement?
Guy Seiler It's a great question and I'm sure that yes indeed, we can do some real positive things within the LGBTQ community with the positive reinforcement that can be given.
Guy Seiler [02:12:30] Especially with the younger people that might just be coming out at this particular time and getting as much support. Again, the positive remarks that a teacher may make in school is the same thing as a kid having their parents being accepting of them, their parents giving them positive comments about their life style and the things that they are doing, the friends that they have,
Guy Seiler [02:13:00] accepting all of their friends also and saying basically, hey I really like your friend and then be specific with that particular friend and have the parents tell the child, the teenager, the young adult, whatever why they like that particular friend. What is it necessarily that the parents like about that? And that in turn will have that young person who's just coming out possibly
Guy Seiler [02:13:30] to attract more of that particular type of friend because parents really do want what's best for their kids. They really do. We're all in this together and when a parent sees their child happy and they see their friends that make their child happy, they're going to want to emphasize those positive things
Guy Seiler [02:14:00] that they saw about that particular individual, that friend and I think it would be a big help to the LGBTQ community.
Michael Brewer: Okay. Now, I'm just going to double back again. With Bert, I know it went out in his book and I've gotten to experience his idea but also he said he had his mom come and live with him.
Michael Brewer: [02:14:30] So, in terms of what kind of person was he in general? Aside from being an expert in handballing. What kind of person was he in general and why do you say you guys were soul mates?
Guy Seiler Bert was indeed my soul mate and when he passed away, I lost
Guy Seiler [02:15:00] so much of myself but I know too that Bert would want me to continue on with what made him the great person that he was. He had such high integrity. He was a man of high integrity, of high values. So bright, he was such a bright man. Good writer, he wrote three books, published 23 books.
Guy Seiler [02:15:30] He was funny, he made me laugh, he made my father laugh. My dad, we'd be sitting at the table and Bert would start opening his mouth and my dad already had a smile on his face because he knew that Bert was going to say something that was up beat, was positive and was going to be possibly funny too. Not all of it was funny necessarily but it was upbeat and he was an optimist, there's no doubt about it
Guy Seiler [02:16:00] and I know that he was my mentor to be a positive person in life. If we want to be miserable, we can be miserable. If we want to be happy, and joyful and positive, that's what we can be. We choose that particular thing.
Guy Seiler [02:16:30] Yeah, things happen. Some terrible things happen like when Bert died. I didn't know if I could make it through. I was flying back from Hawaii, because he died in Hawaii, and I was flying back and I was thinking I hope this plane goes down. I don't care to live any longer and then I thought to myself no. Bert would want me to go on, to continue on with
Guy Seiler [02:17:00] what his legacy was and I truly know that he was a positive individual. The last four years of Bert's life, he was in a wheelchair, didn't stop us from going to Hawaii, didn't stop us from going to the beach and getting in the water and swimming all the time. We went to the pool every day. We swam in the pool every day. It was a little bit more of an excursion to get to the beach but there on Maui,
Guy Seiler [02:17:30] they had a flotation device so I could get Bert into the flotation device right from the car. I could push it across the sand, I pushed it right out into the water, he would flip off and start swimming. He'd swim for 15 minutes and then I'd get it back and somebody would have to help me to hold it while I lifted him back while he was still in the water but somebody was always there to help. Bert never had a negative comment about his illness.
Guy Seiler [02:18:00] He had a thing called Inclusion Body Myositis where the muscles in his legs and arms stop replicating and it formed little vacuoles. He could float. He was like a cork out there on the ocean. He could swim, he could float very easily but walking became a problem. He went from a cane, to a walker and eventually he was in a wheelchair. Did he ever complain about that? No.
Guy Seiler [02:18:30] He was such a positive influence on me. One thing he did tell me, he said Guy, you need to learn a little patience and he was right. He was right. I had to be a little more patient and I was and I did learn. I did learn some patience. There's no doubt about it but at the same time, when he had such a positive attitude, I could never be upset with him and in our relationship of 13 years
Guy Seiler [02:19:00] I remember three different times that we even had an argument and he said Guy, you know how frivolous these arguments really are and I said yeah, you're right. They really are pretty stupid and I said we are so blessed. Probably a month, maybe a month and a half before he died, he looked at me and he said Guy, we're still on our honeymoon, aren't we? I said yeah.
Guy Seiler [02:19:30] We are. What a wonderful man he was and he's looking over me. He's here. My neighbor who's clairvoyant, she says oh, he's here. He's making sure that you're going to be protected as long as you're alive, he'll be here watching over you and I truly believe that. His spirit is here with me.
Michael Brewer: [02:20:00] Thats a wonderful legacy. Okay, don't stop. How much is left?
Natalie Tsui: There's half an hour left.
Michael Brewer: Okay. [crosstalk]
Guy Seiler You want me to talk more on Bert because I can. I'll cry but Bert was-
Michael Brewer: The airplane.
Guy Seiler What's that?
Michael Brewer: You're going to start the airplane.
Guy Seiler Okay. How long have we been going?
Michael Brewer: [02:20:30] A good while but it's still daylight because we're going to take a couple still pictures.
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: [crosstalk] Now, tell me, I read - briefly, these are going to be brief - there were other people who were mentors that played a major role in helping shape your life.
Guy Seiler [02:21:00] That helped me what?
Michael Brewer: Helped to shape your life.
Guy Seiler To shape my life, yes.
Michael Brewer: Or have a positive influence on you.
Guy Seiler Yes. Some of the other people that were influential in my life, especially through my adulthood probably more than anything else. Yet, it happened,
Guy Seiler [02:21:30] my mother was again, very protective of me and she was somebody that was influential in my life but I had more of a closeness towards my father, which was very interesting because he was such a genuine, kind man. Understanding and just you knew that what he said
Guy Seiler [02:22:00] was from the heart and not that my mother's probably wasn't but for my father being a man too and being as gentle and kind and loving and caring as he was, he did. He shaped a lot and it was more in my adult life than it was as a child. As a child, he was pretty much earning, making a living for nine children
Guy Seiler [02:22:30] and everything. So, we didn't know dad as well as I did as an adult. So, that was important and my father really was so accepting of me being gay and was accepting of the relationship that I had with Bert and that was important. He knew that Bert was in my life and at one point,
Guy Seiler [02:23:00] before Bert came into my life, I never had a relationship with anyone and dad told me at one point, he said, you know, I think you're rather selfish. You need to share who you are and your life with someone. You need to understand that it's important to share and you need to understand that being single all your life is a selfish attitude
Guy Seiler [02:23:30] and so, he didn't basically tell me to get into a relationship but he's the one that allowed and said that being open and being in a relationship makes you a stronger individual and I truly do believe that.
Michael Brewer: I'm just searching here. Actually, you didn't mention David Alkay-
Guy Seiler Okay.
Michael Brewer: [02:24:00] Okay. You mentioned Dave [inaudible] but you also mentioned Gay U.S.A. on free speech-
Guy Seiler Oh, yeah. [crosstalk]
Michael Brewer: Had a positive-
Guy Seiler Yeah. Bert and I would often listen to Gay U.S.A. I think it aired here on Saturday evenings and then also again on Sundays but one of the things that we would do is we would sit down
Guy Seiler [02:24:30] each Sunday morning and we would watch Gay U.S.A. on television and it would keep us informed to as to exactly what was happening politically and what was happening as far as the HIV epidemic and things were concerned and aware that HIV was dropping within the gay community. Safe sex was being practiced more often
Guy Seiler [02:25:00] and then of course, the drugs started coming along and the drugs were in such a case like Truvada now is basically the prep that young men are using and it allowed us to see what was all happening within the gay community here in New Mexico as well as in the country, as well as in the world.
Guy Seiler [02:25:30] So, I think Andy Hum and Northrup, what's your first name? We would watch their program to find out what was going on. We also got involved in some of the gay parties and things in Albuquerque. We belonged to a professional gay men's group called the Kiva Club in Albuquerque and once a month,
Guy Seiler [02:26:00] the group of men would get together, usually it was about 30 and we could invite guests. So, the way it was set up was there was a certain number. Ten had to be couples. So, there were 20 right there and then ten could be single. So, the group consisted of about 30 guys and then at each one of the parties, you could invite guests to come to the parties too and it was a social event
Guy Seiler [02:26:30] and as well as keeping on top of what was happening within the gay community here in the state and that's why all the legislators here in the state of New Mexico received a copy of what the bible really says about homosexuality because one of the guys there indicated that he had a minister and gay marriage was brand new to the state.
Guy Seiler [02:27:00] The state of New Mexico started performing gay marriages in the Sandoval County, which is outside of Albuquerque. Albuquerque's in Bernalillo County but Reo Rancho, which is a joining city right next door starting performing gay marriages before any other places because there was nothing on the books that said that they couldn't and so, they did and then of course the state legislator started talking about it
Guy Seiler [02:27:30] and that was at that particular time that the minister for the Metropolitan Community Church in Albuquerque asked if he could get a bunch of copies of what the bible really says about homosexuality and Bert said I've got a whole bunch of copies that I can't sell through Amazon. So, what he did was he gave him enough copies for every legislator to receive a copy of it.
Guy Seiler [02:28:00] What they did with it? I don't know that for sure but it was made available to them. Hopefully, many of them did read that but again, that was through the connections with the Kiva club, which again was a professional gay men's group that met in Albuquerque.
Michael Brewer: So, what does the bible say about homosexuality?
Guy Seiler [02:28:30] Oh, the bible takes each passage or excuse me, the book written by Daniel Helminiak, What The Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, published by Alamo Square Press takes each passage in the bible, Daniel takes each passage where homosexuality is mentioned and then what he does is he takes that and basically takes it and says okay,
Guy Seiler [02:29:00] this is what the scripture meant at that particular time, what it meant as it was written in the bible and what it meant to the people at that particular time. One passage is where it says a man shall not lie down next to another man and he takes that particular passage and indicated in there what that meant at that particular time and how it was not evil,
Guy Seiler [02:29:30] it was not bad, it was not sinful but instead it was what it meant to the people living at that particular time and it's not an interpretation. It takes what the bible says and it basically indicates how during that period of history what it actually meant.
Michael Brewer: [02:30:00] Now, let me ask you, you identify as gay and a gay man and Bert the same. How, in terms of the overall LGBTQ community, have you seen a relationship between gay men and say for instance, trans gender or lesbian or any of those roots.
Michael Brewer: [02:30:30] Has the perception changed or more accepting or is there any change at all or am I just?
Guy Seiler I think the perception of the LGBTQ community has changed dramatically and it's because the younger generations too are much more accepting of all people. I think every family knows somebody who's gay
Guy Seiler [02:31:00] or trans or lesbian. So, I think it's easier because now people are coming out and basically saying well yeah, I have a brother who's gay. I couldn't honestly say 20 years ago that my brother would have said I'm accepting you but today, yeah because he saw Bert as a professional, he saw me as a professional,
Guy Seiler [02:31:30] he saw our relationship and the love that we had for each other and toward each other and he knows that indeed two men can love each other, two women can love each other and so-
Michael Brewer: Okay. The point I was trying to clarify is within the community, is there a perception
Michael Brewer: [02:32:00] that gay males or gay white men are at a hierarchy and were less accepting of others within the community and has that changed or has that been your experience?
Guy Seiler Okay, good. Okay. The question being is there a hierarchy within the gay community?
Michael Brewer: Within the whole LGBTQ-
Guy Seiler Within the whole LGBTQ community. I think there is not.
Guy Seiler [02:32:30] I believe that people accept two men loving each other as well as two women loving each other and whether or not they're lesbians or whether or not they're two gay men, I think the respect is given for those who stand up for their rights. Also, respect is given when people are knowledgeable
Guy Seiler [02:33:00] about what is happening within the community and I think that people will listen and will hear the message that people are sharing, either politically or within their community, whether or not a white male or an African American male or a Hispanic male.
Guy Seiler [02:33:30] Here in New Mexico, there's a huge Hispanic population and it's more of a society that the mother is revered needless to say. It is a matriarchal society, yet the father in the Hispanic community is
Guy Seiler [02:34:00] probably the head of the household so to speak and so, having many Hispanic students in schools that I've taught at or been an administrator for, I see more and more parents being accepting because of the fact that their kids are aware and are knowledgeable and are accepted in society
Guy Seiler [02:34:30] and therefore religion is playing a smaller role. Most of the Hispanic kids that I probably had in school were Catholic, were raised Catholic and the religion is still not accepting in that regard and so, it's hard for the- It's hard for the parents to sit there and say, "Okay, am I going to be torn between my religion and my son or daughter?"
Guy Seiler: [02:35:00] And I really do believe that what they're doing is still accepting and talking about it, and being educated about the fact that it is alright to be gay. And again, reading more materials in reference to what the bible really does say about it. Or whatever their religious beliefs might be, what their religion says about it.
Michael Brewer: [02:35:30] Okay, and so what do you ...
Natalie Tsui: There's 17 minutes on the card just so you know.
Michael Brewer: Okay, I'm definitely winding up. So what do think the biggest changes, or the biggest ... I don't want to say advancement, the biggest you can say advancements, or the biggest changes, over the last say, since you were growing up doing the chores in Wichita.
Guy Seiler: [02:36:00] I think the biggest advancements probably that have been made...
Michael Brewer: Okay, say within the LGB...
Guy Seiler: Okay, the biggest advances within the LGBTQ community that have been made over the years is again that education piece, and the knowledge and the understanding that we are all productive members of society,
Guy Seiler: [02:36:30] and can be accepted, just as any other person, and we can be as loving and show that love to another man, or to another woman, if we're a lesbian, as anyone else, and that has come out and it's now shown that two men can love each other
Guy Seiler: [02:37:00] and live in a society and can be productive within the society, and can be sharing, and caring and loving, and it will then trickle down to the younger generation. And I think you see it on television, but kids see it on the internet, it's there on the internet a lot, and the internet has opened up I think a lot of people's eyes as to the knowledge that is out there, that's available,
Guy Seiler: [02:37:30] you know that we're not perverts in the society, instead we're helpful, we're caring, we're kind, we're loving, we're empathetic, we're just like anyone else, we just happen to love another man, instead of loving a woman. And we care about people,
Guy Seiler: [02:38:00] we care about our future, we care about our mother earth, we care about society, we care about our government, we care about the poor, we care about the downtrodden, we care about every race, every religion, and we talk about it. And through education again, we will open the eyes of those that are not seeing clearly.
Michael Brewer: [02:38:30] Okay, okay. I'm going to open up... Natalie.
Natalie Tsui: Yeah, I have a question, I have two, yeah.
Michael Brewer: She's gonna ask you a couple of questions, and you can just talk to me.
Guy Seiler: Okay, alright.
Michael Brewer: As if I thought of them.
Guy Seiler: Okay, alright.
Natalie Tsui: So my question is, we interviewed someone a couple of days ago that said something like being gay is like having a super power.
Guy Seiler: I can't hear you.
Natalie Tsui: [02:39:00] We interviewed a person a couple of days ago that said something like being gay is having a super power, or there's a specialness to it, and he was talking about having this experience that separates us from everyone else. Can you hear me? You can hear me.
Guy Seiler: I can hear you.
Natalie Tsui: So I was wondering, with that in mind, what has being gay taught you, how has that added to your identity, or added to your life.
Guy Seiler: [02:39:30] Interesting question. Okay. I would say that I have heard, and I've read that being gay is like having a super power, or super sense about certain things, and there may be truth about the senses. Obviously, being a gay man I am sensitive to lots of feelings,
Guy Seiler: [02:40:00] but so are straight people, and bisexual individuals, but I know that overcoming and being over sensitive to any criticism, sometimes made me a stronger individual, and that strength made me a better person toward others.
Guy Seiler: [02:40:30] And I know that probably one of the greatest qualities, and I mentioned it early on, that Bert had was he was empathetic, and we have to be empathetic toward other human beings in the world, and our neighbors, just everyone. And so I think, you know, being gay, and overcoming some of those challenges, shall I say, and some of them probably were a little bit of a challenge
Guy Seiler: [02:41:00] allowed me to overcompensate in another way. I wanted to be the best at what I did and I'm well read in the regard that I love to read and typically most of the things are non-fiction, because I want to better myself, and hopefully better other people
Guy Seiler: [02:41:30] and give them praise and hope, and be empathetic to any of the issues they may have, or any of the challenges they may have. Because I know it was a challenge growing up on a farm, in a rural catholic community in Kansas, was not easy. Yet at the same time, that was a challenge that made me a stronger individual
Guy Seiler: [02:42:00] and it also allowed me to appreciate everything that I was able to accomplish in my life. And again. So much of that was again through education. I know I've emphasized education numerous times, and in the hierarchy of needs, food, shelter, and safety are at the lowest level,
Guy Seiler: [02:42:30] and actually education is at a higher level in our hierarchy of needs. And so those basic things should be taken care of. Everybody should be able to have shelter, everybody should be able to have food, everybody should be able to have healthcare, and the education comes at that next particular level, and so that is the challenge that I think I would give this Trump administration is to think,
Guy Seiler: [02:43:00] not two months down the road, or two weeks, or two years down the road, but be thinking 50 years, and 500 years, and 5000 years down the road, where are we going to be as a society? Are we taking care of our future? And so those are things that I ask this administration to be thinking of.
Guy Seiler: [02:43:30] The bottom needs should all be taken care of, and healthcare shouldn't even be an issue over here, but it seems to be for too many people, because there's insurance companies are involved in making a profit on that. It should be a government run program, you know. And if you can afford something more than the government run program, you can buy that if you want. You know, that's good for you, you can afford to do that, but that's a low need. Education though is that next level
Guy Seiler: [02:44:00] and I do give that challenge to the administration, to all of our legislators, and ask them to be thinking of that for our future. We need to think further into the future.
Michael Brewer: Have you ever thought of getting more involved in politics?
Guy Seiler: I have, I have. I have thought of getting more involved in politics,
Guy Seiler: [02:44:30] and people know that I'm gay, and it really doesn't bother anyone. I mean the board of education when I was hired, I think they suspected I was gay, didn't really bother them, I was with Bert, I had a partner. It was at that particular time I applied for the superintendent's job, and the board... it was interesting, when I retired, well they gave me a two year contract, and they extended that two more years,
Guy Seiler: [02:45:00] and then when I told them I was thinking of retiring, they said, oh but we're going to give you two more years, we want you to stay. But I said no, it's time, because Bert's health was starting to fail a little bit, and they didn't take me out to dinner. They took us out to dinner. So you know it said a lot right there. And so I know, politically, people are not as concerned of the fact that I'm gay or straight. I mean that's not the issue.
Guy Seiler: [02:45:30] The issue... now I call the legislators all the time, I talk to them and I say, "Hey, I see this is what's happening, and these are some of the needs we have in education." I walk down to the mailbox everyday, which is a mile and a half down, and a mile and half back, I always joke it's two miles back because it's coming back uphill, so it seems like two miles. Anyway, it's a three mile walk, and I pick up the trashes along the side of the road, I carry a bag with me oftentimes,
Guy Seiler: [02:46:00] and I pick up the trash. So I called Liz Stefanik, our state legislator and I said "Liz, you know, we need to have a container tax, people will stop throwing out their trash if we put a container tax, and people can pick up this, and they can turn it back in for some money. Let them make a little bit of money on the side at that particular point. So that's one issue that I've talked about, but I understand boards of education,
Guy Seiler: [02:46:30] I understand school districts and so I would really... I don't want to run necessarily for school board, but I have thought about running for state legislator representative, or senator in this particular area. It's expensive, and that's the unfortunate thing, but I have enough friends that I probably could get elected. I worry about my age a little bit, you know, I want the young to come in. You know it's funny,
Guy Seiler: [02:47:00] in this last election too, with Donald Trump, and Hilary Clinton, I was talking to a 44 year old man, and he said "you know, these people are all so old. Why don't we have some young blood in there?" Bernie Sanders was too old, Hilary Clinton was too old, Donald Trump's too old. I'm sitting here saying, "well it's your generation, you know, you're 44, get involved." We need to get the young people enthused and excited about politics, and so you know,
Guy Seiler: [02:47:30] I'm 62 now, and I'm thinking to myself, is it too late? Probably not. It would take a little bit of money, but you know, I haven't ruled it out. I haven't ruled it out.
Michael Brewer: Great, well maybe someone will see this, and [inaudible] an idea. Might have to come up with a slogan [crosstalk].
Natalie Tsui: I have one more question. There's only five minutes left, so.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: Let me know when there's like about two minutes.
Natalie Tsui: [02:48:00] Okay, so five minutes, so keep it brief. But I was wondering what your life has been life after Bert.
Guy Seiler: My life after Bert, the first year I definitely know that I was... I felt like I was not touching the ground, I was going through the motions, and some of the things that I did that year, you know, I was planning for a celebration of his life, and one of the things
Guy Seiler: [02:48:30] that I did is I pride... my mother got on her hands and knees and scrubbed the floor, and I learned that from my mother, you get on your hands and knees and you scrub the floor, because that's the only way you get good clean floors. Anyway, it's almost like it's not... it's what's the word I'm looking for, it's not therapeutic, but it's,
Guy Seiler: [02:49:00] oh gosh, I'm going to try to think, it's the Zen. It's a Zen moment for me to scrub floors, and to do things, and to keep things clean. And so I kind of busied myself with projects around the house. This house was... I've never seen it so clean, and there wasn't anything out of place when I had the celebration of Bert's life here at the house.
Guy Seiler: [02:49:30] And I talked about how he had created this as a sanctuary, and so on and so forth, and I put that out there. I didn't use the word fisting sanctuary, but I did say for the LGBTQ community. And so the first year was very difficult. It was very difficult, and I didn't touch the ground, and the second year, he was cremated, and so I had decided I was going to take some of his cremains back to Hawaii. Went to Hawaii
Guy Seiler: [02:50:00] and spread some of his cremains at the places we had been, and where we had enjoyed the company of a lot of people. I took some to New York where he grew up. He grew up in Larchmont, in Westchester County, and so I took some of the cremains back there, and had a celebration of life with his brother. He had just one brother, and so I was with the family, and we did a big celebration of that. And so,
Guy Seiler: [02:50:30] my own personal life I have done so many things that Bert taught me, and again, it was to be an optimist all the time. To not complain about things, to be happy, to see the joy in things, and to live your life, each day, one day at time. Don't look at the past, the past is gone. The future, you can learn to live today from
Guy Seiler: [02:51:00] what happened in the past, but don't be thinking about the future, think about the present. Live in the present, live in the now. And so Bert taught me that, and so that's what I'm doing, I'm living in the now.
Natalie Tsui: Two minutes.
Michael Brewer: Go on.
Guy Seiler: Okay, and I... after he died I went to see a counselor, and she basically said, how are you going to open the bed and breakfast. Are you going to open the bed and breakfast first,
Guy Seiler: [02:51:30] because I did it with Bert, and I said yeah, I think I need to do that because I have to continue on with my life. Bert would have wanted me to do that, and both of us, we said, we would close the bed and breakfast when it stopped becoming as much fun for our guests as it was for us. And so there wasn't the us anymore, it was going to be me. And I had to experience whether or not it was going to be.
Guy Seiler: [02:52:00] And I thought about closing it after one year. After that year after he died, but I did keep it open, and it was good, because it makes me get out and talk to people, and to see people and to socialize. Because he was the social butterfly. I was in the background kind of.
Natalie Tsui: I think there's only one minute. I'm not to say...
Michael Brewer: Okay, cut cut. You're just going to... your hand is down.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: And then you can just kind of normally lift it up there, and I remember you...
Natalie Tsui: Okay.
Michael Brewer: [02:52:30] Okay. So now [inaudible] you're going to tell us about fisting, and the technique, and use your hands at the same time.
Guy Seiler: Okay. What you want to do is, you want to start in, and you want to go slowly. Start with the one finger, and then maybe a second, and then a third, and then the fourth...
Michael Brewer: Oh sorry.
Natalie Tsui Yeah, that's not quite right.
Michael Brewer: You keep rolling. Put your hand down. And start again.
Guy Seiler: [02:53:00] Okay. What you want to do is, you want to take in, and go ahead and go in with one finger, and then maybe a second, and then gently go in with a third, and the fourth, and use it in a swan like position, and then you'll feel inside the individual, and you actually feel inside...
Michael Brewer: And you can lower your hand like okay. And then with the same conversation... we're rolling, okay, be ready to follow. Put your hand down.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: Here we go. And action.
Guy Seiler: [02:53:30] What you want to do is, you want to start by going in with like one or two fingers, and then go ahead and add a third finger, but you want to keep in in that swan like position, and keep the hand cupped just slightly, and then you can go ahead and then move in with the thumb, and then you gradually and very slowly, very easily move in to the anus,
Guy Seiler: [02:54:00] up into near the sphincter area, into the descending colon, right there.
Michael Brewer: There's something you're doing with the...
Guy Seiler: And then if you do two hands, what you want to do is go ahead and start with the one and bring it in, and then gently put the other on top, and you can't go in like this, it would be too difficult for the individual to be able to take. So what you want to do is you want to just take it
Guy Seiler: [02:54:30] and move with the second hand in behind the top... the bottom hand, excuse me, the bottom hand, and then just move it in and just gradually slip both hands into the individual.
Michael Brewer: Okay, that's fine. And what I recall was you showing one hand, but then you were using the other hand to show like where that hand goes.
Guy Seiler: Into the, into the...
Michael Brewer: Right, okay.
Guy Seiler: [02:55:00] Yep, so we'll just do that real quick. Okay. Set and anticipate the relocation as well.
Natalie Tsui: Can you put your hand up so I can get focused real fast. [inaudible].
Michael Brewer: Okay.
Natalie Tsui: So you can take it down, and just remember if you could raise it to around that level that would be extremely helpful.
Guy Seiler: Okay, alright.
Michael Brewer: Put it down. Ready, here we go, ready to anticipate and action.
Guy Seiler: [02:55:30] What you would want to do is go ahead and go with the first finger, and then the second, and then the third, and what you're doing is you're just gradually moving, very, very slowly in, and you're opening up the anus at that particular point, and just move very, very slowly, and you move in, and then the thumb kind of comes in, and then eventually you've got the knuckles, and the knuckles will then move right over, and then you're gonna slip right in.
Michael Brewer: [02:56:00] Okay. I think that's fine. I think we're going to do it one more time. As I recall that it was vertical, like you were showing...
Guy Seiler: It was coming up this way? I can do that. I can do that very easily.
Michael Brewer: We'll have a couple... lower your hand.
Natalie Tsui: Let's see where the hand would be.
Guy Seiler: Right here. You want it here?
Michael Brewer: Even a little bit lower.
Guy Seiler: Lower?
Michael Brewer: Yeah, like that.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Natalie Tsui: So can you kind of remember that position?
Guy Seiler: I can.
Michael Brewer: Okay, so you're going to start with your hands down.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: [02:56:30] Here we go, and action.
Guy Seiler: What a person would do is, the top would come in with the one finger, or maybe two, and they would just gradually move in, and they're moving in, inside the anus at that particular point. And you just gradually move one finger in, and then the second, then the third, and then into the fourth, and then the thumb easily slips in behind,
Guy Seiler: [02:57:00] and then you open it up, you allow yourself to keep going inside. And the bottom is pulling in at this time, also. And so they're able to pull you past the knuckles, right around the knuckles, and then right in.
Michael Brewer: Okay, one last thing.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: That was fine, both of those were fine. Okay, for this one, we don't even need to... you don't need to describe it, you're just going to do it, just a little bit sooner, what I want to see is how you shaped your hand.
Michael Brewer: [02:57:30] Like you were saying, it's not a fist, basically you're just gonna show how you shape the hand, and it just goes right in like that.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: So we're just going to do that like literally like five times.
Guy Seiler: And do you want to do here, and then go here kind of, and then turn it up.
Michael Brewer: Yeah.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Natalie Tsui: So can you put your hand in position one.
Guy Seiler: Right here?
Natalie Tsui: Yeah.
Michael Brewer: So you're going to do it, you're going to end up [crosstalk] first you're going to show, like we were saying.
Natalie Tsui: Alright cool.
Guy Seiler: Okay. So right here, ready?
Michael Brewer: [02:58:00] And tilt down a little bit, tilt down a little bit, okay, here we go, and be ready for that, and action. And the vertically, just show the other hand, just show how it goes in, yeah. Don't tilt until his fist is about to...
Michael Brewer: [02:58:30] okay, and now you can just, okay, that's fine. Let me see is his mouth in there? Okay, that's fine. Is his mouth in there? Just drop your hands. I think now I'll cut.
Natalie Tsui: Okay.
Guy Seiler: Did that go okay?
Michael Brewer: Yeah, yeah, you did perfect.
Natalie Tsui Can we do it one more time for focus. Can you end up in position two when you're putting your hand through?
Michael Brewer: [02:59:00] This time don't take... what we're trying not to do is show your mouth.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: Because it will go with what we already have [inaudible] you talking. So now we're just trying to isolate your hands. So don't bring your hands so far up.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: So we're going to use your shirt that we like so much. That's going to be the background.
Guy Seiler: Got it.
Natalie Tsui: Okay, so bring your hand up to where you're going to end up.
Guy Seiler: Right here. I can do it there. I can keep it lower.
Natalie Tsui: So just hold it right there. It's actually in focus. Okay, that's great, let's try it again.
Guy Seiler: Okay.
Michael Brewer: [02:59:30] [inaudible] okay, here we go, and... let's start one more time. Let's start one more time. Here we go, [inaudible] frame dump, and action. Okay, so try to keep going, keep going, keep going, okay,
Michael Brewer: [03:00:00] and now you can just drop your hands, drop your hands again, drop them back, and cut. Okay, that's fine.

Interviewed by: Michael Brewer
Camera: Natalie Tsui
Date: February 07, 2018
Location: Home of Guy Seiler, Tajique, NM