Partial Transcript: MANUEL GARZA:
All right.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
All right. Excellent. Oh yes, you get it.

MANUEL GARZA:
Yeah, I got it. It's there. All right.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
All right. Is that the level good for him? Excellent.

MANUEL GARZA:
Okay, we'll start.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Okay. If we can start by you introducing yourself to us.

MANUEL GARZA:
All right. My name is Manuel Hatler Garza, and I live at 319 East 24th street in Manhattan. I moved in from San Antonio, Texas in ‘58, 1958, and I love New York City. I became a gay activist with the Mattachine. Then I got active with religions that wanted to give us equality. And that's about it.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
There's a lot there already. Yeah. Let's go back to San Antonio. You were born and raised in San Antonio.

MANUEL GARZA:
I was born and raised in San Antonio. I played in the band in San Antonio and I went [inaudible] to Trinity and I played in their band, Trinity university. I just took some courses and I played in the band and came to New York. I had the idea of starting a gay band in New York because so many gay people have played in high school bands and orchestras. I said, you know, we should do it, but I had to work and try to survive, so they never fell through. But eventually had a bands here for gay pride parade, they have 'em and chorus. I used to sing in choirs as well. I always thought of doing something like that instead of … In the gay community, just like the Negroes at that time, I'll call 'em Negroes at the time. Their only freedom was to get to churches and that's where they were not harassed by the police. In the gay community, you would always get harassed or raided because the bartender or the owner didn't pay off the police department to keep 'em open. I said, that's not fair either. Then when we got together, the Episcopalians started with a group called Integrity. We changed a lot of the rules and regulations in the Episcopal church. Example, there was a professor at General Theological Seminary by the name of Deborah Good, I think that's her name. She was being kicked out of the facilities where the professors lived, because she was living with her significant partner. We went and rallied for her and they changed that. She's able to live there with her partner in that facility. Little by little, I started getting more involved with our community. Mattachine, I worked in their office, volunteered, and then I got very involved with Integrity when we got together.

Keywords: Band; Church; College; Education; Episcopal Church; Integrity; Introduction; Manhattan, NY; Mattachine Society; New York; Pride; Religion; San Antonio, TX; Texas; Trinity University

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What made you stand out? What made you wanna be a voice for the gay community? At that time, a lot of people were quiet, no?

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, I didn't think it was fair. And at that time when Martin Luther came along and started to rally and they were struggling, I said, well, right now we're the negroes of society, the gay community, because they're always … I understand when people came to America, they were Irish. The Irish need not apply for jobs. I just didn't think that was fair. I believe that we should all be equally accepted, live and let live. I was a spiritual person, I think I'm religious. Then I had conflicts with the Roman Catholic Church because there was so much homophobia, but unfortunately I was molested as a young teenager by a Roman Catholic priest when I sang in a choir, in Roman Catholic Church, Our Lady of Mount Carmel Basilica run by the Carmelites. I didn't see anything wrong with these men wanting to have sex, but they weren't living according to their vows, poverty, chastity, and obedience. When you're a teenager and something like that happens to you, it's disturbing. You don't want to tell your parents because they won't believe you. That's about it with that subject.

Keywords: Abuse; Childhood; Civil Rights Movement; Community; Equality; Homophobia; Martin Luther King Jr.; Religion; Roman Catholic; Sexual Abuse; Spirituality

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Was it a painful transition to leave the Roman Catholic Church to become Episcopalian? Or was it a freeing event?

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, when I first moved to New York I had heard of a smokey Mary's and I said, what is that? They said, oh, it's a very high Anglo Catholic parish in New York city. I moved September 18th in ‘58, which was on a Saturday on the 19th. I went to St Mary's. As soon as I got there, I fell in love with it. I was shopping for a religion. Though, in San Antonio, I went to the Presbyterian, Methodist, other denominations, Christian Church that they have there. It wasn't my upbringing with the Eucharist and they weren't Eucharistic enough for me. I just wasn't happy. I stuck to the Roman church when I came to New York, but I really wasn't happy with it. I went to a confession, sacramental confession, and I wrote, we have a book with Integrity that, it's called a book of revelations, we each wrote our story. I was told that I should have male hormones to make me butcher or straighter. I mentioned to the priest, I think that would make me very horny or much hornier . And you're against masturbation. I think I'd have to break that rule . So I said, I think you're full of bullshit. That's the last time I went to Rome. Then I found the Episcopal church, and then I got myself in a committee with the beginning of Integrity. Then the AIDS epidemic came along. I had a salon and three of my employees died of AIDS in the late seventies and early eighties. Many of my clients were dying and many of my personal friends were dying. I kept counting the tally and it was over a hundred people. I immediately got involved with that ministry of going to the Roosevelt hospital every Sunday. Not quite every Sunday, some Sundays I wouldn't go. I'd bring my pot of coffee and I'd bring my radio. They could have pastry and coffee, visiting the sick, if they were too ill to get out of bed, I'd go to their bed and take them. We have St Luke's and Roosevelt hospital, our hospitals for the Episcopal church, so I was at Roosevelt. I volunteered here at the VA hospital right across the street from where I live. I did free haircuts for them, for men and women, then I would visit the sick. Then Integrity started, or St. Luke started a program, visiting the patients at … They went to St. Vincent's hospital, and I got very involved with that. Many people died in our Episcopal church. It was very sad. I call it the Holocaust, but at that time, Larry Kramer was starting gay men's health crisis, and my employee who died around 1979, Del, I contacted him. When I had a Memorial service for him, well, he was born in a very homophobic religion. He was a Mormon, but not a practicing Mormon. His mother insisted that the Mormon church by Lincoln center would give him a little Memorial service. And the Bishop, they call the head of their communities a Bishop, he wanted to proselytize everyone, try to convert us to Mormonism, which wouldn't be a right religion for us. I took care of Delbert, and then I started taking care of a lot of friends when they were dying in the hospital by taking care of 'em, helping them with their body functions, feeding them and just being with them. That was very stressful farming, but somehow I managed to do that, but then Larry Kramer started GMHC. And when I had that Memorial service at the Mormon church, I collected $6,000 from Del's clients – Del had a lot of very successful clients – and immediately sent that to GMHC. So I think I was a small part of the growth of Gay Men's Health Crisis.

Keywords: 1981-present The AIDS epidemic; AIDS; Christianity; Community Activism; Episopalian Church; Gay Men's Health Crisis; HIV; Healthcare; Manhattan, NY; Mormonism; New York; Religion; Roman Catholic

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Sure, sure. What does your faith mean to you?

MANUEL GARZA:
My faith means to me, well, basically I believe I can go to any house of worship that claims it's a house of God, and I feel very comfortable in it because we all pray to the same God calling him a different name. Faith to me was very important because I just feel it's ... I see a plant, a flower, an animal, something created it, and I'm at awe about that. And I'm at awe with human beings. Both of you are totally different looking and you're very beautiful. You have beautiful eyes. I see beauty in people. I feel your aura. What you're doing is a wonderful thing for our community, having this done, letting people know out there that we're struggling for our freedom, we're struggling for people that want to get married. They're lucky enough to have a partner and I believe in live and let live. I don't understand these bigots that complain when people wanna get married. I don't know how they feel it's not gonna directly affect them, but they get very upset about that. God is very important to me. I feel him in my presence, whatever you call that presence, spirituality. I feel that when I'm in trouble, I always go back to our heavenly father and ask for strength and help. Sometimes he says, yes, and 90%, percent of the time, he says, no . But anyway, yes, religion is important in my life. I don't know where to talk. What else to say, the Episcopal church, as I said, Episcopal church at one time was not accepting us, some individual parishes were, but now with Integrity, it’s much better for us. They give unions now in various churches with the approval of the Bishop or without. Some of the pastors or clergy will not inform the Bishop that doing a ceremony for two men or two women. In my parish, St. Luke's in the field, it's a wonderful parish because they have such outreach programs, remedial programs for children. Teachers volunteer on Saturdays. We’re in cahoots with shelter for men, with the Presbyterian church on 5th avenue and 11th street, First Presbyterian, we cook meals for PWAs, every Saturday. And visiting PWAs at St. Vincent's hospital weekly with teas and things like that. We have roughly 8,000 young folks, teenagers, that are homeless and we have a program for them on Saturdays, a meal. They even teach them hip hop if they wanna dance and they've performed, I understand they have performed. I'm very happy with St Luke's and I got to meet you folks through Mother Faulk, Mary Faulk, who is really involved with the children program, she’s a wonderful priest. I just love St Luke's because it's out there for the community and in the city at large, if I didn't have to work, I would volunteer more for St. Luke's. There's so much to do. The teenagers that live on the street, it's very pathetic. They've been kicked out of the homes and they come over and they have a great evening with their meals and so forth.

Keywords: Faith; Freedom; Gay Marriage; God; Homelessness; Individuality; Marriage; Religion; Spirituality; Volunteering

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
I have a question when you see the teenagers who are coming out and, in many cases, they recognize that they're gay or lesbian or transgender at a much younger age than people of your generation. How was it for you coming out? Did you know gay people? Did you use the term gay? What was the experience like for you?

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, when I was in junior high school, I could sense who was gay, and I guess you call it gaydar. I had two or three friends that were, and I'd get together with 'em, but being poor, I couldn't afford to go with them out very much, so we'd meet in school. Later on in high school, I played in the band and I met some gay people there and we would talk to one another and we went to a pool, a swimming pool, two or three of us. It wasn't until I came to New York that it was more open, very closeted. In San Antonio, if you went to a bar, you had to be 18 years old. You never knew when it was gonna be raided and handcuffed and put a Patty wagon, arrested. I think there was a law when four homosexuals got together in the state of Texas, there was a congregation and they could arrest you. I remember once, I was in high school and I went to a party at a friend's house in the evening, a big Victorian house, had been in the Williamsburg section of San Antonio, which is the old section. It's a little bit like New Orleans, these beautiful homes. We were just having dinner and police came and raided it. At that time I had a friend who was in the army and I had to climb out the window and go through the roof because if he'd get caught, he would've been discharged for being homosexual. It was tough there. There was also entrapments for gay people in San Antonio. If you'd sit in a park at night, there was a famous cruising park called the Travis park in the main section of town. That's where the gays would go to congregate and meet other men for rendezvous. There was always arresting them there or in the big park [inaudible]. There's a lot of homophobia there, and it was very difficult to live there. It's better to come and be more anonymous here in New York. Though, at the time, I did makeup and hair, and I worked for a company Charles le Ritz. I remember one evening, Charles le Ritz sent me for a Halloween party to do makeup, and I didn't know it was gonna be a gay party. I'm known as a great makeup artist and hairdresser. I worked for Sassoon’s and Charles le Ritz and Julius Caruso, they were the top shops here. I was doing makeup and there was a raid, but there was a vice squad officer mingling in that party, he said, “No, he doesn't know anyone here. He's been working here.” I said, “Yes, my company sent me here to do makeup,” so they let me go. But they arrested some of those people at the party. I was very upset about that because they weren't doing anything that was just a Halloween party and they raided it.

Keywords: Arrest; Charles le Ritz; Coming Out; Gay Bar; High School; Homophobia; Law; Manhattan, NY; New York; Police; San Antonio, TX; Texas; Travis Park

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What was the transition for you like with your gay identity after you moved to New York? Did you go back home and how did you relate to your family after?

MANUEL GARZA:
Actually, when I left San Antonio, I burned the bridge behind me. I mean, I went to see families for weddings or funerals, a lot of funerals at that time. All of a sudden aunts, paternal aunts and maternal uncles were dying and my mother and my father and so forth. So I went there, but I felt very claustrophobic there. I just didn't like it anymore. People look at you very if you dress a little artsy they'll call you a faggot or something like that. Now that I'm older, I don't have that happen to me quite often. Quite often I was called a faggot. I don't know why. I don't know if it was my movements. I was walking the way I dress. I always dress conservatively with a shirt and a tie. But it's much better now, as you get older, maybe the beard does it and they call me, “sir,” now .

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
When you moved to New York, how old were you?

MANUEL GARZA:
I was 22.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Did you know anyone here?

MANUEL GARZA:
I had a friend from San Antonio. He and his partner lived on Sullivan street in the village, right by Bleecker street. Charlie met me, and he found a room for me to rent with an elderly gay couple where the Hilton is, at 100 West 54th, third floor walkup. I didn't know what I was gonna do here. I came to New York with $45 in my pocket and that's called hutzpah. I would do anything just try to get myself in. I said, what am I gonna do for my career here? I had little horrible jobs. I worked for the boarding company and a cost accounting department at the Nixon law firm. I worked in this steno department, typing, and I hated that. But in the meantime, I went back to hairdressing because I thought it was pretty good money and I thought it was the best way to get myself established in money. And then I was going to Hunter at night at the same time, but then you're working and you're trying to play and you're trying to do your homework, so I dropped college and I just stuck to hairdressing, which I am very grateful I loved. In fact, I do it to supplement my social security, I do a few clients. And I love New York, it's been a wonderful experience for me.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Have you lived here since you moved here?

MANUEL GARZA:
Yes. I moved in this apartment. I've only had three apartments. I lived on, well, at temporary place with these two elderly gentlemen. Then I moved to 74th street right off the park. I lived there for a while, over a couple of years, I went to Brooklyn Heights and I lived there until I moved here in ‘74. This place was a miracle. I found this apartment, which is, I think, God's gift because I did volunteer work at the VA hospital, and there were apartments available. I signed and I got it. I was living in Brooklyn, but I was working here in Manhattan. My whole life was, it was my bedroom, Brooklyn Heights was my bedroom. This is my living room. Now I live in my living room here.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What were you active in when you were in your twenties and thirties, where your community was within the church? Were you also a part of any other clubs or groups, or did you go out to bars?

MANUEL GARZA:
No, I wasn't really a bar person. I guess because my father was alcoholic and I didn't like being around drunks because I was asked to leave my house when I was still in high school. My father came home drunk and I presumed that he knew that I was gay and it just … He was very macho, so he kicked me outta the house, but it was a blessing. I moved to the [inaudible] in San Antonio. I worked doing stock and cashier in a supermarket, and I was able to pay my rent and save my pennies to come to New York. No, I wasn't a bar person.. What I did that I liked, I was roller skating. I went ice skating and that was a lot of fun. I went to a lot of concerts and theater. At that time, I saw Judy Holliday Bells Are Ringing for a Broadway show, good seat for about six bucks. It's not the same anymore. Pizzas were cheap and subway was cheaper, and I managed. But the activities I got involved with, well, as I said, roller skating, ice skating, my bike, I went to the beach. I love to swim. I go to the beach almost daily ... I mean, to the gym daily

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Still now.

MANUEL GARZA:
I still do because I'm [inaudible], and I have struggle with, I have tendonitis and just a lot of problems, physical, and I'm a survivor of cancer, which was a big battle. I try to take care of myself. The cancer was prostate and that was strenuous and arduous to go through. It's changed my whole life because I'm not the same person I used to be. I have to take care of my health more now, I have to rest. I wanna do what I did as a teenager, but I can't, I have to slow down. Let's see, while I was active with, there was an organization. We had a discussion club called the ‘West Side Discussion Club’ that met monthly, and it was gay men. It was very interesting. They had speakers, psychologists speak. This was in the late sixties in church. I used to go, God, I took some dancing lesson, ballroom dancing, the square dancing. I used to square dance. There was a square dancing group I did. I've always kept myself busy.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Very active. I'm interested. You're the west side … What was it you said?

MANUEL GARZA:
It's called the West Side Discussion Club and they would meet, oh, God, this is centuries ago. I don't remember where they'd meet at … Schools. That didn't last very long, Mattachine Society had all very … Reminded me of the boys in the band. They were all very bitchy at one another, and most of them were alcoholic and they were snapping each other and that wasn't good, and then it died out.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
But what was the general?

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, there was a magazine at one time, a gay magazine called One, and you can look it up. It was in the early sixties, the small little booklet, and it told you about what's going on in this country. That was about the only thing that was going on. Oh, I remember we used to meet our letter ... We would collate our newsletter for Integrity here. I was a secretary and I had been treasurer for Integrity. I put in at least 40 hours a week with Integrity and the group would get here and I cooked food for us. We had our meetings here and we'd collate our letters. I had to take 'em to the post office. The post office general wanted a copy of it. They thought it was pornographic and it was nothing like that, it was religious organization. They gave us a hard time doing that. I had to collate in various districts, the sections of the United Southwest, Northeast, so forth and so on. I would take it to the post office, these bags, and they would let me wait, because they knew it was a gay organization. They were not too pleasant, but we survived that.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
You had different issues for different sections of the United States?

MANUEL GARZA:
No, it was the same, but we'd send some out to California or Southwest. It was a cheaper rate, you know, the postal, that's why …

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
How did people hear about this? How did it grow?

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, Dr. Louie Crew started Integrity and it just got through the Episcopal church that there was this group that was fighting for gay rights and issues, and it just got famous and the computer was out and that's what started it. I don't know if I've covered anything else.

Keywords: Alcohol; Alcoholic; Alcoholism; Cancer; Career; Closeted; College; Coming Out; Dance; Dropout; Education; Family; Hairdressing; Integrity; Manhattan, NY; Mattachine Society; New York; One Magazine; San Antonio, TX; Survivor; Texas

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Well, I'm curious to hear what would you say the definition of being gay is, or why is someone gay or what does it mean to you to be gay? Because it's clear that from a very young age, even though there was disapproval from your family and from the community and from the church that you were involved in at the time, you still identified as gay …

MANUEL GARZA:
Even the military.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
And in the military.

MANUEL GARZA:
Sure. I just knew that I was gay by the time I was six, seven years old. I just knew it. It was instinctive thing that I just knew it. I knew I used to admire men when they went swimming in the swimming pool. I thought they were very attractive. I thought women were beautiful. I’ve a beautiful cousin that looked like Rita Hayward. I was in love with her. She was just beautiful, but my attraction was towards men. Then I tried to look up the word homosexuality, or when I was in junior high school, I went to the public library, the main, and there was nothing written on it, nothing. I went through the files, and I was a librarian in junior high school, so I knew the Dewey system. I went to the library. I couldn't find anything on it. What was said about it was just derogatory. Just horrible. So yes, I thought that being gay, it's a blessing. I've never thought of it as being, I think you can be creative. I think that I have both aspects of male and female in me, that I can create and cook and just decorate. This is just me, nothing professional. I kind of set it up pretty good, right? It's just me.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Yeah, it's a beautiful apartment.

MANUEL GARZA:
And the terrace, I worked on that terrace. Terrace blank, I went and got lumber. I audit the lumber and I assembled it, because I liked to work with wood too, and I've never studied wood and look what I did.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
It's beautiful.

MANUEL GARZA:
I started out. I think that being gay, you just kind of can cook, sew and iron, and then at the same time do masculine things. If you want to ride a bike and it breaks, fix it, fix tires. It's a blessing. I always say, why were there so many gay people born? I think mother earth has so many people on the earth, and I think we kind of don't produce, we're not breeders and why are we gay? I think we were just born that way. I have no explanation. I don't feel bad about being gay. I'm proud to be who I am.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Was there a period where you did feel bad?

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, in the Roman church, they make me feel like … I almost thought of committing suicide, and they were wrong. So many people have killed themselves. There was a play I saw about a year ago, it was an [inaudible] called The Requiem. The plot of the play is that this young man was gay and Mormon, and he had calluses on his knees praying to God to make him straight. He came out to his parents and they were using the Mormon beliefs against it. They went up to their Bishop and he went up to the Bishop, too, this young man, and he knelt in the Mormon, whatever you call it, temple, for hours asking God to make him straight. Then he finally committed suicide. When the parents informed the Bishop that their son had killed himself, how he handles bad messages or bad news, he'll listen to Perez Requiem. But the Mormons don't have a requiem, they don't have a Eucharistic, there's no such thing as a requiem for them. That's Anglican or Roman Catholics, where they do a requiem. His solace was hearing a requiem. They were the cause of that kid dying, they wouldn't accept him. I think when we have our last judgment, these people that were so against us, they have to pay for that judgment because so many people have killed themselves. Personally, I know a few that have committed suicide through guilt, and that's wrong, very wrong, very wrong. This thing that's going on with the Roman church, with the pedophiles, I was molested by a Roman priest, and that's a horrible thing. A child loses its innocence. You know what happened in Wisconsin, those deaf mute kids. The kids can express it. If they're young, they don't know the language about that, and that's bad. I believe a pedophile should be … The New York Times editorial last week, a guy named Donovan speaking against the holy father, he says the whole synopsis is a gay thing. And that's wrong. I mean, I'm not interested in a child to be intimate with. I wanted someone equal. I find it horrible that children are being molested. They should be put in jail and incarcerated as far as I'm concerned. Well, I have a terrible opinion about that. I just don't like anyone that would molest a child. That's very bad. A lot of guilt. I don't know if I answer you fully, what you wanted to know.

Keywords: Children; Church; Coming Out; Femininity; Gay; Homophobia; Masculinity; Military; Molestation; Mormonism; Pedophile; Religion; Roman Catholic; Suicide

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What have you seen the changes in the gay community that must be remarkable to you from when you were …

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, I wasn't there at the Stonewall in ‘69, but as soon as I heard about it, I got involved and I marched, I’ve marched on every, it's not a parade, it's a Pride march, and I marched on the first Pride. My experience, the first pride we met in the Village and we paraded or walked our march on 6th Avenue, but we were given about a third of the street. Can you cut it off the phone? You won't hear the phone ring as I going back after the phone interruption, we had our first march up 6th avenue and people were booing us and construction workers were mooning us. We thought that was funny, these straight butch men mooning us and they thought that they were being obnoxious to us. We just thought that was so nice. The police had their horses with their asses towards us, not looking at us. We saw some horses having a number two going on, but it's alright, that's mother nature. Then we got to the great lawn in central park, and we weren't organized. We were just there. I felt like it was Woodstock, the festival, people were walking and having … A lot of cops were there and I'm sure our pictures were there all over FBI, whatever, and then progressed. Now, we have this big thing going on. I was honored, we had Bishop Spong from Newark. Well, probably Newark, New Jersey, that area, Secaucus. He got rid of one of his priests, a friend of mine, because he found out that he was living with his significant other at the rectory there. Later on, he changed and he accepted gays and I decorated the float. It wasn't really a float, it was a convertible. I had to decorate it because Bishop Sung and his wife were gonna be at that as an honorary people representing Episcopal church. I said, what am I going to do that's not gonna cost me a lot of money? It dawned on me those little red ribbons they did for AIDS, crosses over, I got red materials, ribbons and I made hundreds of them. I pasted 'em all on the car. I pasted almost double glue, scotch tape type of thing. He was really impressed with that, those ribbons. He was happy to attend the even song that they have at St. Luke's, as always after the march, there's a reception after even song and everyone in the gay community from various churches gathered together. They usually have an Episcopal Bishop there. Kathy Roskum is a woman a Bishop who's for gay rights. I know her personally, we used to volunteer in this cooking and the soup kitchens for the homeless and the poor. She had been an actress, and then she became a Bishop. I call her Kathy, I don't call her bishop. We knew each other when we were young and she officiates for many of the Integrity, even songs at St. Luke's. There's been a great change now, they don't raid the bar, young folks now they can go to discos and they won't be raided or harassed. It's totally different now, people are out. But a lot of us, the old folks, really had to struggle to get us where we are now. It's a wonderful way to see that they have a dance at the pier, they have a big fundraiser out in Fire Island, there's that march, and there's Gay Pride. I think it's not more than right.

Keywords: Episcopal Church; Manhattan, NY; New York; Pride; Pride March; Stonewall

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What do you see for the future for yourself?

MANUEL GARZA:
Future for myself? I live a day at a time. You can't be the here and the now, I have to be in the here and now. I worry, for myself, about how I’m going to financially support myself. I was very supportive to my mother and some of my nephews and nieces and my siblings, when they needed money, I helped them out, and I never thought of myself. Being the giving person that I am, I have to live a day at a time. Hopefully, I can work until I drop dead. I have a few clients that I do, and I'm surviving. I live a very simple life. I don't require much. I have everything I need, I think, food, clothing, and shelter. But the money doesn't come in very well, but a lot of people are struggling with money. I'm very happy and contented. Oh, I played woodwind instruments, the last three years I'm studying jazz. I'm playing piano and that's very comforting. I'm a student at the Turtle Bay Music School. I have a wonderful teacher. I'm not good at it, but it's just for me. It's just my own pleasure.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
This is something you started recently?

MANUEL GARZA:
About three years ago, so yeah.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
So when's the first recital?

MANUEL GARZA:
You'd have to gimme a lot of volume for that one. Can you give me any ideas what else you want me to talk about? Let's see.

Keywords: Future; Music

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Do you have a circle of friends who you've been friends with for many years?

MANUEL GARZA:
Yes, I do. I have a circle of friends. I made most of my good friends through Integrity, but some are predeceasing me now. I have a lot of women friends that are straight, that I love dearly. I go out with friends to movies. That's about the extent I like to go out, with movies. I love films, especially foreign films. I love to tell jokes. I'm always telling jokes. I've got a great sense of humor.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
You got a good joke. You can tell us.

MANUEL GARZA:
Yes. Good joke. For Passover, this is a literary joke, the woman presents a blind man with a matzah and the blind man holds the matzah. For the people that don't know what a matzah is, it's about this big, the blind man holds the matzah in his fingers for a while, and he said, who wrote this shit?

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
That's pretty good.

MANUEL GARZA:
Yeah. I'm always telling jokes. Teacher informs her kids in high school, “It's a slow day today, I'll let you go home if you can answer the questions on American history.” And Tommy was very precocious and he raised his hand up, but she was never getting them, she was always asking the girls to answer the questions. So, one question, “Who said, ‘I regret that I only have one life to serve for my country?’ Susie” “Nathan Hale.” “Nathan Hale, you may go home, have a nice weekend.” “Who said, ‘Don't ask what the country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?’ “President Kennedy.” And with that, the little boys said, “Dammit, I wish these ladies would shut their mouths.” And the teacher said, “Who said that?” “Tiger Woods?”

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
very topical . So you're not just old jokes, you're up to the minute with your jokes.

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, anyway, I'm always telling jokes and I make people laugh. “Enough for the jokes,’ they’d say to me. I do cook, I love to cook. I like to entertain. Humbly saying, I am a good cook. Everyone likes my cooking. I specialize in Tex-Mex food.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Of course. Everyone, you haven't left everything back there, huh?

MANUEL GARZA:
No. When I first arrived in New York, in my twenties, I was at a studio apartment on Montego Street Reed. I met a circle of wonderful friends at that time. There was an elderly gay couple that I invited over to my house for dinner, on their way to my house for dinner, they informed someone they ran into in the street that they were coming to have Mexican food and they said, “Don't eat, it's dog food. It's horrible. I've had it.” Lalala. When they got to my house, I presented food, they had a teaspoon of each thing that I gave them, and I was horrified. I said, oh my God, they hated my food. The following morning they called me, they said, one was vice president for Texaco, and the other one was the head of general foods in their nutrition value as a chemist. They invited me to be a guest every weekend in their house on Fire Island, if I would cook for them because they didn't even know how to boil water. I went for a few years on Saturdays and Sundays, cook breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and they always had parties and I cooked the food for them. They picked me up in their little yacht that they had, I'd go buy a train and I buy the spices, whatever I needed, and they picked me up. I had room and board there.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
how nice is that?

MANUEL GARZA:
It was lovely.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What was Fire Island like back then?

MANUEL GARZA:
Oh, it was really nice. They had two houses and one house they built for Guy Lombardo’s brother who had bought the second house, but they were not on the ocean side, they were on the bay side and they were just very lovely people and they appreciated my cooking and I loved it.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
They were an older gay couple?

MANUEL GARZA:
Yeah. They were older. I was in my twenties and these men were fifties, sixties and seventies. They were very nice to me. So it's time up.

Keywords: Cooking; Education; Fire Island; Friends; Humor; Integrity; Joke; Judaism; Manhattan, NY; Matzah; New York; Passover; Teacher

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
No, we have a little more time. I'm curious. What was it like, their experience being gay? What was the difference between your experience?

MANUEL GARZA:
Oh, well, they were very masculine looking. I mean, they looked like John Wayne, and in fact, John, who was head of the account department, for them spoke in a very deep voice, and Steve was very, he was Herculean body. He was like, Mr. Clean ball hit it, and these ripple bodies, it was just, for a man his age ... At that time, gay men didn't have that type of gym body. Everyone was just a natural. They were very, very nice to me.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
What did you learn from them about being gay? Would you say, looking back.

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, they didn't go to bars or anything because of their positions, they were very closeted, but I met a lot of very beautiful closeted gay men that couldn't because of positions and the jobs. Once, in San Antonio, I had a friend who worked as a typist for the federal government. I was working before I came to New York, and the FBI came and asked me questions about Ed, I won't tell you his last name. I'll call him Eddie Smith. They say, we understand he's gay and so forth and so on. I just said, I'm sorry. I don't know that aspect. He is married. He was married and going through, he's married. And as far as I know, he's a married man and happily married and that was it. He said, oh, come on, you know the answer, if you don't ... And I don't know what possessed me to say, okay, then let me call my lawyer. I didn't know, I've seen something like that in the movie. So I plagiarize it. I'll get my lawyer so he can stand here and you can ask me all the questions, and they say, okay, and then he left.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
It worked.

MANUEL GARZA:
It worked , [inaudible] . Yeah, I was working at the boarding company and this big politician was there … No, it was at the Nixon law firm. I take it back. One day I went to a bar, just a bar on East Side, on 53rd. He showed up there and he had a big government job. He dressed a little differently to go there, but I recognized him and I pretended I didn't see him because he recognized me and I recognized him. I just kept quiet. You had to be discreet about things. They were very hard times. They were very, very hard times being gay. It still is now, you're not accepted by, well, the military, we have to straighten that out, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. There are a lot of countries that have gay people in the military and they function well. I don't know, the theory is the shower. You're taking a shower together. I mean, if you're straight, you're not attracted to every woman you would see in the shower or a man that you would see in the shower. It has nothing to do with that. It's just not right. But things shall pass.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Do you think that that will change?

MANUEL GARZA:
I'm sure it will, will have to. Cheney's daughter who was gay, she did nothing to help us when she was there. She worked under Cheney's administration and she's a lesbian, but she has all the privileges because of her father's position. That's wrong. She did nothing for the gay community. In fact, she was against us in many ways. There was a film, not too long ago, about the closeted politicians in the government, did you see that one?

Speaker 4:
Outrage [inaudible].

MANUEL GARZA:
Yeah. You should see it. Mayor Koch is a closeted gay and the man was gonna out him, was told because you know, they would kill him. Yeah, you saw that. It's a wonderful film, wonderful film. You should see it. They have to try to pretend who they are, and they're not what they are not. Thanks for telling me that.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
It seems that that has changed. No, I mean that obviously there are still a lot of men living in the closet.

MANUEL GARZA:
What about that man that was caught in the men's room at the airport.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Oh yeah. Craig?

MANUEL GARZA:
Yeah. Yeah. It's pathetic. He should just come out. I mean, that's what he was preaching.

Speaker 4:
The evangelist. Who's that?

MANUEL GARZA:
Which one?

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
The evangelical speeches.

MANUEL GARZA:
Oh yes.

Speaker 4:
There's a documentary on him also. I mean, he's still in the closet.

MANUEL GARZA:
Oh yes. And they think that, those fundamentalist religions, if they publicly make a confession with they've committed a sin and they cry, they're forgiven and then they're okay. They can't do a rehab. I have a friend who lives on the 28th floor and they gave him reversal therapy. I don't know what repulsive therapy, they would shock him to make him go straight. It worked for a little while and then he went back. I asked him where they attached the electrical lymph on his testicles and different parts. They showed him women, as soon as they showed him some male aspect of the body, zap it, but that's not right. You have to be who you are.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
Is he now?

MANUEL GARZA:
Oh, he's completely gay.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
He's accepting of his gayness.

MANUEL GARZA:
Yeah. He went through that. He wanted to go straight, but it didn't work. No, it doesn't work. Why bother? Just be who you are, right?]

Speaker 4:
They're getting close to proving that it's genetic, scientifically.

MANUEL GARZA:
Sure. It has to be. I think I covered enough territory. Hopefully, I did. I hope I could help out.

Keywords: Acceptance; Closeted; Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell; Gay Bar; Genetics; Government; Law; Lawyer; Marriage; Masculinity; Military; Politics; Religion; Science; Shock Therapy

Partial Transcript: BRIAN O’DONNELL:
This was terrific. Thank you so much.

MANUEL GARZA:
Well, I thank you. It's been an honor to, I hope I didn't sound too nervous. I'm not feeling very well today, but I'm usually more gregarious and have more than I am now today.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
I think people watching will get a pretty good sense of who you are. I really, really appreciate you letting us in your house and sharing your story with us.

MANUEL GARZA:
Thank you. Now you can be my friends. Anytime you wanna come around, come over. I'll give us a drink. I made great margaritas.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
That's the deal. That's the deal. I'd like to try some of the Mexican food.

MANUEL GARZA:
Oh yeah, I do that for you as well.

BRIAN O’DONNELL:
All right. Well, we'll say thank you very much.

MANUEL GARZA:
Thank you both. I hope God blesses your work. I hope it helps.

Keywords: Closing Statements; Goodbyes